Article for USAir Pilots
#1
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 137
Article for USAir Pilots
I have recently written several short articles for the USAir pilots. This is one:
Preface: I feel it important to inform the USAir pilots that I resigned from ALPA nearly two years ago after years of disappointment and disgust concerning ALPA's leadership failures.
This is a follow up to my note of several days ago. I think the USAir pilots might benefit from learning about the FedEx MEC chairman's appearance before the America West Pilots on April 21, 2004, and how ALPA's short-term decisions affect its long term credibility and strength.
During the early part of 2004, the AWA pilots had been considering decertifying ALPA and replacing it with an in-house union. The situation became serious enough that then-ALPA president, Duane Woerth, asked FedEx MEC chairman, Dave Webb, and CAL MEC chairman, Jay Panarello, to address the AWA pilots on the disadvantages of an in-house union. What the pilots were not told was that Jay Panarello was one of the worst strikebreakers that we had at Continental. Not only did he cross the picket line early on, he proactively attempted to get other employees fired. This is a note that I received from one of our former CAL pilots who was married to a CAL flight attendant:
Bob: If I ever see Panarello I will personally embarrass him in front of as many real pilots as possible...He did his level best to have my wife fired at Continental and made her life hell as she was under close observation for many months...He is the ONLY CAL PILOT that I know of that attacked another pilot's family member during a strike.
Readers might ask, "How did a strikebreaker like Jay Panarello get back into the union, much less get elected chairman of the Master Executive Council?" The answer is this: Some time before his election, ALPA national, in its desire to increase dues income, decided to permit all Continental strikebreakers to join the Association as members in good standing. This was done with no requirement for any act of penance, no period of probation, and no requirement to pay back-dues. It was, by all standards, a free pass for crossing the picket line.
My viewpoint is that of one who spent two years on strike at CAL, started over several times before landing at FedEx, and gave up about one million dollars in compensation because of people like Jay Panarello. To me, it was inconceivable that Duane Woerth would send a strikebreaker to act as a spokesman for ALPA in any venue (can you imagine any true union doing this?), and that my current MEC chairman would share the stage and microphone with such an individual. After all, the strike against Continental was probably the most righteous strike ever in the airline industry. It was called against a management team that was both corrupt and incompetent. Stories of Frank Lorenzo's corrupt behavior even during his college days were well-know and public knowledge. Anyone who wanted to know, could and should have known, including Jay Panarello.
But, to me, there is something more important and disturbing about this whole matter: It is the idea that an organization calling itself a "union" could unconditionally welcome into its fold the confirmed enemies of working men and women in this country with, apparently, no comprehension, whatsoever, of the downstream strategic effects of such a move. Not only does the embracing of known strikebreakers physically dilute the strength of an, otherwise, potentially solid membership, but it substantially demoralizes those who have fought, or might ever be willing to fight, the war against corruption. How in the world do you successfully mix together the valiant individuals who were robbed of their jobs with those who stole them? And, if such tolerance is the end result, how could you possibly expect anyone to ever again take a picket line seriously? It is unfathomable. To some extent, this is why ALPA has been unable to protect pensions, incomes, and working conditions. It has so diluted its strength by catering to the weakest of its membership that it no longer has any credibility or leverage.
If any USAir pilots are under the illusion that ALPA's incompetence and corrupt behavior started with them, they need to think again. This has been going on for decades. In my opinion, ALPA's inability to defend its members against pension loss, pay reductions, executive manipulation, the courts, or internal fragmentation is the direct result of a legacy of leadership incompetence that has left it impotent. ALPA's principle-free policies, employed for short-term gain, have resulted in a membership that so lacks trust in both the organization and in each other that there is, in my opinion, little possibility of ALPA ever again throwing up a meaningful picket line or doing much of anything else to defend its members. Where there is no accountability for crossing a picket line, there is no good reason to not cross a picket line.
And, that is why we are where we are as a profession today: Dog-eat-dog, every-pilot-for-him or herself. Oddly enough, it is not the mighty FedEx pilots who have the incentive to change our world---they are still mind-numbingly apathetic and, essentially, leaderless. Nor is it ALPA national---all it appears to care about is its dues money. For the moment, it is the pilots at USAir who are in the driver's seat.
Sincerely,
Bob
Bob Lavender
FedEx Crewmember
Preface: I feel it important to inform the USAir pilots that I resigned from ALPA nearly two years ago after years of disappointment and disgust concerning ALPA's leadership failures.
This is a follow up to my note of several days ago. I think the USAir pilots might benefit from learning about the FedEx MEC chairman's appearance before the America West Pilots on April 21, 2004, and how ALPA's short-term decisions affect its long term credibility and strength.
During the early part of 2004, the AWA pilots had been considering decertifying ALPA and replacing it with an in-house union. The situation became serious enough that then-ALPA president, Duane Woerth, asked FedEx MEC chairman, Dave Webb, and CAL MEC chairman, Jay Panarello, to address the AWA pilots on the disadvantages of an in-house union. What the pilots were not told was that Jay Panarello was one of the worst strikebreakers that we had at Continental. Not only did he cross the picket line early on, he proactively attempted to get other employees fired. This is a note that I received from one of our former CAL pilots who was married to a CAL flight attendant:
Bob: If I ever see Panarello I will personally embarrass him in front of as many real pilots as possible...He did his level best to have my wife fired at Continental and made her life hell as she was under close observation for many months...He is the ONLY CAL PILOT that I know of that attacked another pilot's family member during a strike.
Readers might ask, "How did a strikebreaker like Jay Panarello get back into the union, much less get elected chairman of the Master Executive Council?" The answer is this: Some time before his election, ALPA national, in its desire to increase dues income, decided to permit all Continental strikebreakers to join the Association as members in good standing. This was done with no requirement for any act of penance, no period of probation, and no requirement to pay back-dues. It was, by all standards, a free pass for crossing the picket line.
My viewpoint is that of one who spent two years on strike at CAL, started over several times before landing at FedEx, and gave up about one million dollars in compensation because of people like Jay Panarello. To me, it was inconceivable that Duane Woerth would send a strikebreaker to act as a spokesman for ALPA in any venue (can you imagine any true union doing this?), and that my current MEC chairman would share the stage and microphone with such an individual. After all, the strike against Continental was probably the most righteous strike ever in the airline industry. It was called against a management team that was both corrupt and incompetent. Stories of Frank Lorenzo's corrupt behavior even during his college days were well-know and public knowledge. Anyone who wanted to know, could and should have known, including Jay Panarello.
But, to me, there is something more important and disturbing about this whole matter: It is the idea that an organization calling itself a "union" could unconditionally welcome into its fold the confirmed enemies of working men and women in this country with, apparently, no comprehension, whatsoever, of the downstream strategic effects of such a move. Not only does the embracing of known strikebreakers physically dilute the strength of an, otherwise, potentially solid membership, but it substantially demoralizes those who have fought, or might ever be willing to fight, the war against corruption. How in the world do you successfully mix together the valiant individuals who were robbed of their jobs with those who stole them? And, if such tolerance is the end result, how could you possibly expect anyone to ever again take a picket line seriously? It is unfathomable. To some extent, this is why ALPA has been unable to protect pensions, incomes, and working conditions. It has so diluted its strength by catering to the weakest of its membership that it no longer has any credibility or leverage.
If any USAir pilots are under the illusion that ALPA's incompetence and corrupt behavior started with them, they need to think again. This has been going on for decades. In my opinion, ALPA's inability to defend its members against pension loss, pay reductions, executive manipulation, the courts, or internal fragmentation is the direct result of a legacy of leadership incompetence that has left it impotent. ALPA's principle-free policies, employed for short-term gain, have resulted in a membership that so lacks trust in both the organization and in each other that there is, in my opinion, little possibility of ALPA ever again throwing up a meaningful picket line or doing much of anything else to defend its members. Where there is no accountability for crossing a picket line, there is no good reason to not cross a picket line.
And, that is why we are where we are as a profession today: Dog-eat-dog, every-pilot-for-him or herself. Oddly enough, it is not the mighty FedEx pilots who have the incentive to change our world---they are still mind-numbingly apathetic and, essentially, leaderless. Nor is it ALPA national---all it appears to care about is its dues money. For the moment, it is the pilots at USAir who are in the driver's seat.
Sincerely,
Bob
Bob Lavender
FedEx Crewmember
#2
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,068
The America West pilots were well aware of who was being brought in to talk to them and who wasn't(UA/AAA). They weren't impressed by either the CO or FDX guys. AWAPA(the in-house you are referring to) was defeated because it was largely run by a bunch of loudmouth incompetents, many of whom had been booted out of union positions previously. Their finances and facts did lineup or ring true with the line pilots. Much like the current USAPA drive, their best leverage was the lack of a contract at America West. This was also due to Woerth because he made it clear to the America West's MEC that he would never authorize the strike fund to be released to AmWest. He had done this previously at a few regionals: Trans States, ACA and hints that he did at Air Wis as well. This is a huge deal as it handcuffs your negotiating team, although no one here was interested in hearing about it during our contract negotiations. Anyway, Doug Parker can end the USAPA drive at anytime by agreeing to a TA on a combined contract. There is no way that 51% of the combined groups don't vote yes on any TA that contains even modest improvements. That will further legitimize the seniority list that the Rice Commission just upheld, and make USAPA incredibly irrelevant.
#3
I have recently written several short articles for the USAir pilots. This is one:
Preface: I feel it important to inform the USAir pilots that I resigned from ALPA nearly two years ago after years of disappointment and disgust concerning ALPA's leadership failures.
This is a follow up to my note of several days ago. I think the USAir pilots might benefit from learning about the FedEx MEC chairman's appearance before the America West Pilots on April 21, 2004, and how ALPA's short-term decisions affect its long term credibility and strength.
During the early part of 2004, the AWA pilots had been considering decertifying ALPA and replacing it with an in-house union. The situation became serious enough that then-ALPA president, Duane Woerth, asked FedEx MEC chairman, Dave Webb, and CAL MEC chairman, Jay Panarello, to address the AWA pilots on the disadvantages of an in-house union. What the pilots were not told was that Jay Panarello was one of the worst strikebreakers that we had at Continental. Not only did he cross the picket line early on, he proactively attempted to get other employees fired. This is a note that I received from one of our former CAL pilots who was married to a CAL flight attendant:
Bob: If I ever see Panarello I will personally embarrass him in front of as many real pilots as possible...He did his level best to have my wife fired at Continental and made her life hell as she was under close observation for many months...He is the ONLY CAL PILOT that I know of that attacked another pilot's family member during a strike.
Readers might ask, "How did a strikebreaker like Jay Panarello get back into the union, much less get elected chairman of the Master Executive Council?" The answer is this: Some time before his election, ALPA national, in its desire to increase dues income, decided to permit all Continental strikebreakers to join the Association as members in good standing. This was done with no requirement for any act of penance, no period of probation, and no requirement to pay back-dues. It was, by all standards, a free pass for crossing the picket line.
My viewpoint is that of one who spent two years on strike at CAL, started over several times before landing at FedEx, and gave up about one million dollars in compensation because of people like Jay Panarello. To me, it was inconceivable that Duane Woerth would send a strikebreaker to act as a spokesman for ALPA in any venue (can you imagine any true union doing this?), and that my current MEC chairman would share the stage and microphone with such an individual. After all, the strike against Continental was probably the most righteous strike ever in the airline industry. It was called against a management team that was both corrupt and incompetent. Stories of Frank Lorenzo's corrupt behavior even during his college days were well-know and public knowledge. Anyone who wanted to know, could and should have known, including Jay Panarello.
But, to me, there is something more important and disturbing about this whole matter: It is the idea that an organization calling itself a "union" could unconditionally welcome into its fold the confirmed enemies of working men and women in this country with, apparently, no comprehension, whatsoever, of the downstream strategic effects of such a move. Not only does the embracing of known strikebreakers physically dilute the strength of an, otherwise, potentially solid membership, but it substantially demoralizes those who have fought, or might ever be willing to fight, the war against corruption. How in the world do you successfully mix together the valiant individuals who were robbed of their jobs with those who stole them? And, if such tolerance is the end result, how could you possibly expect anyone to ever again take a picket line seriously? It is unfathomable. To some extent, this is why ALPA has been unable to protect pensions, incomes, and working conditions. It has so diluted its strength by catering to the weakest of its membership that it no longer has any credibility or leverage.
If any USAir pilots are under the illusion that ALPA's incompetence and corrupt behavior started with them, they need to think again. This has been going on for decades. In my opinion, ALPA's inability to defend its members against pension loss, pay reductions, executive manipulation, the courts, or internal fragmentation is the direct result of a legacy of leadership incompetence that has left it impotent. ALPA's principle-free policies, employed for short-term gain, have resulted in a membership that so lacks trust in both the organization and in each other that there is, in my opinion, little possibility of ALPA ever again throwing up a meaningful picket line or doing much of anything else to defend its members. Where there is no accountability for crossing a picket line, there is no good reason to not cross a picket line.
And, that is why we are where we are as a profession today: Dog-eat-dog, every-pilot-for-him or herself. Oddly enough, it is not the mighty FedEx pilots who have the incentive to change our world---they are still mind-numbingly apathetic and, essentially, leaderless. Nor is it ALPA national---all it appears to care about is its dues money. For the moment, it is the pilots at USAir who are in the driver's seat.
Sincerely,
Bob
Bob Lavender
FedEx Crewmember
Preface: I feel it important to inform the USAir pilots that I resigned from ALPA nearly two years ago after years of disappointment and disgust concerning ALPA's leadership failures.
This is a follow up to my note of several days ago. I think the USAir pilots might benefit from learning about the FedEx MEC chairman's appearance before the America West Pilots on April 21, 2004, and how ALPA's short-term decisions affect its long term credibility and strength.
During the early part of 2004, the AWA pilots had been considering decertifying ALPA and replacing it with an in-house union. The situation became serious enough that then-ALPA president, Duane Woerth, asked FedEx MEC chairman, Dave Webb, and CAL MEC chairman, Jay Panarello, to address the AWA pilots on the disadvantages of an in-house union. What the pilots were not told was that Jay Panarello was one of the worst strikebreakers that we had at Continental. Not only did he cross the picket line early on, he proactively attempted to get other employees fired. This is a note that I received from one of our former CAL pilots who was married to a CAL flight attendant:
Bob: If I ever see Panarello I will personally embarrass him in front of as many real pilots as possible...He did his level best to have my wife fired at Continental and made her life hell as she was under close observation for many months...He is the ONLY CAL PILOT that I know of that attacked another pilot's family member during a strike.
Readers might ask, "How did a strikebreaker like Jay Panarello get back into the union, much less get elected chairman of the Master Executive Council?" The answer is this: Some time before his election, ALPA national, in its desire to increase dues income, decided to permit all Continental strikebreakers to join the Association as members in good standing. This was done with no requirement for any act of penance, no period of probation, and no requirement to pay back-dues. It was, by all standards, a free pass for crossing the picket line.
My viewpoint is that of one who spent two years on strike at CAL, started over several times before landing at FedEx, and gave up about one million dollars in compensation because of people like Jay Panarello. To me, it was inconceivable that Duane Woerth would send a strikebreaker to act as a spokesman for ALPA in any venue (can you imagine any true union doing this?), and that my current MEC chairman would share the stage and microphone with such an individual. After all, the strike against Continental was probably the most righteous strike ever in the airline industry. It was called against a management team that was both corrupt and incompetent. Stories of Frank Lorenzo's corrupt behavior even during his college days were well-know and public knowledge. Anyone who wanted to know, could and should have known, including Jay Panarello.
But, to me, there is something more important and disturbing about this whole matter: It is the idea that an organization calling itself a "union" could unconditionally welcome into its fold the confirmed enemies of working men and women in this country with, apparently, no comprehension, whatsoever, of the downstream strategic effects of such a move. Not only does the embracing of known strikebreakers physically dilute the strength of an, otherwise, potentially solid membership, but it substantially demoralizes those who have fought, or might ever be willing to fight, the war against corruption. How in the world do you successfully mix together the valiant individuals who were robbed of their jobs with those who stole them? And, if such tolerance is the end result, how could you possibly expect anyone to ever again take a picket line seriously? It is unfathomable. To some extent, this is why ALPA has been unable to protect pensions, incomes, and working conditions. It has so diluted its strength by catering to the weakest of its membership that it no longer has any credibility or leverage.
If any USAir pilots are under the illusion that ALPA's incompetence and corrupt behavior started with them, they need to think again. This has been going on for decades. In my opinion, ALPA's inability to defend its members against pension loss, pay reductions, executive manipulation, the courts, or internal fragmentation is the direct result of a legacy of leadership incompetence that has left it impotent. ALPA's principle-free policies, employed for short-term gain, have resulted in a membership that so lacks trust in both the organization and in each other that there is, in my opinion, little possibility of ALPA ever again throwing up a meaningful picket line or doing much of anything else to defend its members. Where there is no accountability for crossing a picket line, there is no good reason to not cross a picket line.
And, that is why we are where we are as a profession today: Dog-eat-dog, every-pilot-for-him or herself. Oddly enough, it is not the mighty FedEx pilots who have the incentive to change our world---they are still mind-numbingly apathetic and, essentially, leaderless. Nor is it ALPA national---all it appears to care about is its dues money. For the moment, it is the pilots at USAir who are in the driver's seat.
Sincerely,
Bob
Bob Lavender
FedEx Crewmember
fbh
#4
NMB: You are such a pompous dooooooooouchebag!
Try learning how to write a coherent sentence and then come back and baffle us all with your BS.
I'm sure all the USIR pilots out there are trolling the purple tails forum in hope of finding such a golden nugget that you in all of your self absorbed grandeur think you are providing, but you are actually just making a public embarrassment of yourself.
We get it, you CHOSE to strike at Continental. Good on you. You then took your ball and ran home because you didn't like what ALPA was doing. I actually think that of all people, YOU have the right to be disappointed with ALPA and have as good a reason for not belonging as there could ever be. Had I struck and watched ALPA bring scabs into the fold I probably would have quit too.
That being said, you aren't nearly as smart as you seem to think you are and nobody has asked for all of your sage advice. You (justifiably) turned your back on the union. Fine. Do the honorable thing and walk away with your head held high. Spare us, however, the self-righteous, know it all rhetoric of your little "articles". You aren't the burning bush you fancy yourself to be.
Let it go, and shut the hell up.
Thanks.
Try learning how to write a coherent sentence and then come back and baffle us all with your BS.
I'm sure all the USIR pilots out there are trolling the purple tails forum in hope of finding such a golden nugget that you in all of your self absorbed grandeur think you are providing, but you are actually just making a public embarrassment of yourself.
We get it, you CHOSE to strike at Continental. Good on you. You then took your ball and ran home because you didn't like what ALPA was doing. I actually think that of all people, YOU have the right to be disappointed with ALPA and have as good a reason for not belonging as there could ever be. Had I struck and watched ALPA bring scabs into the fold I probably would have quit too.
That being said, you aren't nearly as smart as you seem to think you are and nobody has asked for all of your sage advice. You (justifiably) turned your back on the union. Fine. Do the honorable thing and walk away with your head held high. Spare us, however, the self-righteous, know it all rhetoric of your little "articles". You aren't the burning bush you fancy yourself to be.
Let it go, and shut the hell up.
Thanks.
#5
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: Completely Apolitical Nonsensical Slogan that has nothing to do with politics in the slightest....
Posts: 160
Bohica,
I think your post is a little vague. I'm really not quite sure what you're getting at. Do you think you could clarify it a little for us?
Thanks in advance, and please note the proper use of your and you're,
TSDeeezzz Nutzzzz....
P.S. Ding Ding Ding "Blinding Flash of Sarcasm"
P.P.S. That (Bohica's) was a dang funny post.... I don't care who ya'are!!
I think your post is a little vague. I'm really not quite sure what you're getting at. Do you think you could clarify it a little for us?
Thanks in advance, and please note the proper use of your and you're,
TSDeeezzz Nutzzzz....
P.S. Ding Ding Ding "Blinding Flash of Sarcasm"
P.P.S. That (Bohica's) was a dang funny post.... I don't care who ya'are!!
Last edited by Twiceskunkeddog; 09-24-2007 at 05:25 PM. Reason: Clarifornication
#6
NMB: You are such a pompous dooooooooouchebag!
Try learning how to write a coherent sentence and then come back and baffle us all with your BS.
I'm sure all the USIR pilots out there are trolling the purple tails forum in hope of finding such a golden nugget that you in all of your self absorbed grandeur think you are providing, but you are actually just making a public embarrassment of yourself.
We get it, you CHOSE to strike at Continental. Good on you. You then took your ball and ran home because you didn't like what ALPA was doing. I actually think that of all people, YOU have the right to be disappointed with ALPA and have as good a reason for not belonging as there could ever be. Had I struck and watched ALPA bring scabs into the fold I probably would have quit too.
That being said, you aren't nearly as smart as you seem to think you are and nobody has asked for all of your sage advice. You (justifiably) turned your back on the union. Fine. Do the honorable thing and walk away with your head held high. Spare us, however, the self-righteous, know it all rhetoric of your little "articles". You aren't the burning bush you fancy yourself to be.
Let it go, and shut the hell up.
Thanks.
Try learning how to write a coherent sentence and then come back and baffle us all with your BS.
I'm sure all the USIR pilots out there are trolling the purple tails forum in hope of finding such a golden nugget that you in all of your self absorbed grandeur think you are providing, but you are actually just making a public embarrassment of yourself.
We get it, you CHOSE to strike at Continental. Good on you. You then took your ball and ran home because you didn't like what ALPA was doing. I actually think that of all people, YOU have the right to be disappointed with ALPA and have as good a reason for not belonging as there could ever be. Had I struck and watched ALPA bring scabs into the fold I probably would have quit too.
That being said, you aren't nearly as smart as you seem to think you are and nobody has asked for all of your sage advice. You (justifiably) turned your back on the union. Fine. Do the honorable thing and walk away with your head held high. Spare us, however, the self-righteous, know it all rhetoric of your little "articles". You aren't the burning bush you fancy yourself to be.
Let it go, and shut the hell up.
Thanks.
I'm with Bohica.
Lavender: I don't know who you are and why you think we would care. As a non-Member, you have no dog in this fight, so keep your silly, anti-ALPA opinion to yourself Bohica is right--you do nothing to further any cause and it does appear that you post for the sake of hearing yourself yap. While you are impossible to ignore, I encourage anyone who reads this board to give you and your insanity not a shard of credence. Sack up and pay your dues and then post all you want, you'll have a bit more credibility.
WM...Member
#7
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 137
Lavender: I don't know who you are and why you think we would care. As a non-Member, you have no dog in this fight, so keep your silly, anti-ALPA opinion to yourself.... While you are impossible to ignore, I encourage anyone who reads this board to give you and your insanity not a shard of credence....
WM...Member
WM...Member
Somehow, a few of you have determined that this is an "ALPA" board and that people with dissenting views should be excluded. I understand this to be a public board where ideas may be published freely. Furthermore, I imagine that the general reader does not need you to help them decide whether to read or not.
I find it humorous that one reader thinks that I am "trolling" for USAir pilots on the Purple Tails board (he must not be aware of Mr. Webb's current connection to the USAir pilots). One point of my article (along with other articles that I have posted) is that while both ALPA national and the FedEx MEC chairman refused to publish articles that I wrote (while a member in good standing) regarding numerous strategic issues facing our profession, there was no apparent hesitation in having our MEC chaiman share the podium with a known strikebreaker who cost this profession dearly. Regardless of how you feel about what I say, do you not find that to be astonishingly useful information in assessing the weakness of this profession today?
I am aware that some pilots will never see the connection between ALPA's persistent leadership failures and the trouncing you took at the bargaining table the last time around (specifically, the significant deterioration of work rules), the purposeful ignoring of the impending Age 60 "train wreck" until it was too late, and the various other shortcomings discussed on this board from time to time. Well, at least you got Agency Shop in return for your concessions. That little provision ensures that you will never have a meaningful say in what goes on here, nor will you ever be able to get anything changed. "They" have your money and you voted to give up the power of the pocketbook.
Nice job.
Bob
Last edited by rjlavender; 09-25-2007 at 05:11 AM.
#8
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: MD11
Posts: 315
I need to save this statement for future use....
In case I ever need to make myself feel better about not paying my own way.
Thanks for all the good ammo.
In case I ever need to make myself feel better about not paying my own way.
Thanks for all the good ammo.
#9
[I am aware that some pilots will never see the connection between ALPA's persistent leadership failures and the trouncing we took at the bargaining table]
We?....we?...we? Bobby, you ain't "we". You are "they".
We?....we?...we? Bobby, you ain't "we". You are "they".
#10
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post