When the coffee is bitter, just add some sugar and cream
11-02-2007, 11:51 AM
#31
Proponent of Hysteria
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: "Part of the problem." : JL
Posts: 1,053
The words below are not my own. I was asked by a friend who is unable to post on this board (APC not accepting new members?) to post his comments on this LOA/No Leverage Fiasco:
HELLO McFly!!!!!
Well, it sure is a good thing that we bought off on the LOA so quickly, cause we all know that the company will never come back with enhancements or improvements if we sent the neg committee back to the table. What they sent down was absolutely the best we were going to get. No way would they come back with more. They will do it without us!!
Let's just look at these few jewels of wisdom. "As we learned from Subic". "Will surely learn", "unexpected idiosyncrasies", "could not be anticipated".
Excuse me, but did we, or did we not, yell at the top of our lungs, in the weeks before the vote, exactly our concerns about this precise problem?
"Unexpected?" I don't know how we could have been more clear about how inadequate the LOA is. But what do we know. We have only been living out here for years. We only spent time in Hong Kong and actually talked to leasing agents in person. We only did actual research and had documentations to back it up. But what do we know?
"It has become clear". Maybe when they see that they can't fill seats in HKG and CDG, their vision suddenly started to improve. Too bad their hearing didn't improve earlier when we were doing the above mentioned yelling and screaming.
"a substantial security deposit may be required". Not may be required. WILL be required. Again, we showed example after example of this requirement, but nobody listened.
I can't help but wonder what would have happened if we sent them back to the table to come up with a fair LOA that would address all the issues properly. But I guess they did such a good job of convincing us all that the LOA as it stands, is the best we can get. No more, no way. Take it or leave it.
So they came back with the STV modification when they heard the crew concerns about the 3 months stints. Tweak it just enough to get it passed.
Now they see the seats going unfilled in HKG and CDG, so they are coming back with a bit more to "help us out". I guess that is where the extra practice bid comes in handy. They can offer just enough to get to the point of filling the seats. Maybe toss one more enhancement before the bid closes and hope for the best.
I guess it would be too difficult to just follow the lead of the hundreds of companies that have been doing business in HKG for years, and already know what kind of expat package is needed to properly address the needs and concerns of people who are being required to move themselves and families to a foreign assignment, for the benefit of that company.
Maybe we are just hurting for money,and need to nickel and dime the pilots in order to help out the impoverished billion dollar company. Hell, lets tell them up front, that they are going to have to come out of pocket about $2000 per month in order to live there. Schooling, deposits, etc? On your own, buddy! Oh wait, they are offering to help with the deposits now. Sorry, I digress. Allow me to retort!! What does the Fedex crew force, look like? (if you have seen Pulp Fiction, you know where this is headed).
Anyway, it will be interesting to see how it all shakes out in the final chapters of this saga.
Can't hardly wait for the next round of contract negotiations. After all, what kind of message are we sending to the company if we reject their substandard offers?
I just hope we are not so quick to ask "how high" the next time the company and our neg committee says, "Jump!"
Hxxx
Someone save me a seat at the F. St. Station, and order me up an Alaskan Amber. I'll be along shortly.
ANC bound and down
HELLO McFly!!!!!
Well, it sure is a good thing that we bought off on the LOA so quickly, cause we all know that the company will never come back with enhancements or improvements if we sent the neg committee back to the table. What they sent down was absolutely the best we were going to get. No way would they come back with more. They will do it without us!!
Let's just look at these few jewels of wisdom. "As we learned from Subic". "Will surely learn", "unexpected idiosyncrasies", "could not be anticipated".
Excuse me, but did we, or did we not, yell at the top of our lungs, in the weeks before the vote, exactly our concerns about this precise problem?
"Unexpected?" I don't know how we could have been more clear about how inadequate the LOA is. But what do we know. We have only been living out here for years. We only spent time in Hong Kong and actually talked to leasing agents in person. We only did actual research and had documentations to back it up. But what do we know?
"It has become clear". Maybe when they see that they can't fill seats in HKG and CDG, their vision suddenly started to improve. Too bad their hearing didn't improve earlier when we were doing the above mentioned yelling and screaming.
"a substantial security deposit may be required". Not may be required. WILL be required. Again, we showed example after example of this requirement, but nobody listened.
I can't help but wonder what would have happened if we sent them back to the table to come up with a fair LOA that would address all the issues properly. But I guess they did such a good job of convincing us all that the LOA as it stands, is the best we can get. No more, no way. Take it or leave it.
So they came back with the STV modification when they heard the crew concerns about the 3 months stints. Tweak it just enough to get it passed.
Now they see the seats going unfilled in HKG and CDG, so they are coming back with a bit more to "help us out". I guess that is where the extra practice bid comes in handy. They can offer just enough to get to the point of filling the seats. Maybe toss one more enhancement before the bid closes and hope for the best.
I guess it would be too difficult to just follow the lead of the hundreds of companies that have been doing business in HKG for years, and already know what kind of expat package is needed to properly address the needs and concerns of people who are being required to move themselves and families to a foreign assignment, for the benefit of that company.
Maybe we are just hurting for money,and need to nickel and dime the pilots in order to help out the impoverished billion dollar company. Hell, lets tell them up front, that they are going to have to come out of pocket about $2000 per month in order to live there. Schooling, deposits, etc? On your own, buddy! Oh wait, they are offering to help with the deposits now. Sorry, I digress. Allow me to retort!! What does the Fedex crew force, look like? (if you have seen Pulp Fiction, you know where this is headed).
Anyway, it will be interesting to see how it all shakes out in the final chapters of this saga.
Can't hardly wait for the next round of contract negotiations. After all, what kind of message are we sending to the company if we reject their substandard offers?
I just hope we are not so quick to ask "how high" the next time the company and our neg committee says, "Jump!"
Hxxx
Someone save me a seat at the F. St. Station, and order me up an Alaskan Amber. I'll be along shortly.
ANC bound and down
Last edited by skypine27; 11-02-2007 at 11:58 AM.
11-02-2007, 11:55 AM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Position: A300/310 Capt
Posts: 1,642
Originally Posted by AerisArmis
Lets see if I've got this right. 1)None of the guys and gals flaming against the FDAs are bidding it. 2)All of you are appoplectic over the thought of being forced to go on an STV. 3)Now, you are united in your opposition to those "fools" (most often used term) that do want to go, getting this new bennie of up to 10k in an apartment deposit? Even though, you all fully realize, the more people who bid it, the less likely that there will be any sort of involuntary STV? It almost seems like some folks want this whole thing to fail and fail badly, even if it means some suffering for our fellow pilots that go over. Wouldn't you rather have this thing become a rousing success? Have guys, senior to you, bid it and get out of your way? Have no new hires sent, meaning less overmanning in most seats? Maybe not.
It is a matter of principle. Principle in the Union doing a thorough and professional job supporting the best interest of you and I. It is also the principle of the Company abiding by the guidelines of working through our Union to come up with a fair and equitable solution to their business plan. When the Company colors outside the lines, and the Union allows them to bargain directly with with the pilots, the picture turns out looking like something that my 5 year old daughter colored.
11-02-2007, 12:57 PM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Posts: 732
Originally Posted by Albief15
Look,
This was misplayed. For the first time in a long time we could said "no", and not put our jobs at risk. We would have lost $2700. Anyone read the ALPA national boards? The new "not really a pilot" international co-pilot concept is being discussed. Do you really think there were a bunch of solid, proven airline pilots and equipment ready to take our spots in CDG and HKG? I know in my little dinky businesses, when I find someone who gets the job done I am willing to pay a bit more to make sure I keep the quality I need. So--I think there was more leverage.
But...I also KNOW that 68% said "yes" anyway.
So--file this one away as a lesson learned. And I say I hope the company also adds a school stipend, a transportation stipend, and a host of other benefits. I hope every guy who DOES go over gets a great deal.
But if you haven't figured it out--if you don't like the package--don't bid it. Apparently there is still a "little wiggle room" in "absolutely the best deal we can get..."
This was misplayed. For the first time in a long time we could said "no", and not put our jobs at risk. We would have lost $2700. Anyone read the ALPA national boards? The new "not really a pilot" international co-pilot concept is being discussed. Do you really think there were a bunch of solid, proven airline pilots and equipment ready to take our spots in CDG and HKG? I know in my little dinky businesses, when I find someone who gets the job done I am willing to pay a bit more to make sure I keep the quality I need. So--I think there was more leverage.
But...I also KNOW that 68% said "yes" anyway.
So--file this one away as a lesson learned. And I say I hope the company also adds a school stipend, a transportation stipend, and a host of other benefits. I hope every guy who DOES go over gets a great deal.
But if you haven't figured it out--if you don't like the package--don't bid it. Apparently there is still a "little wiggle room" in "absolutely the best deal we can get..."
The Company needs to negotiate this and any future deals, end of story.
11-02-2007, 01:08 PM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 2,889
While I agree, the reality ain't happening. So where does that leave us?
And to answer your signature line--the answer is "don't bid any widebody or the 757". Sad, isn't it? To get $2700 for the bro's overseas, I'm going to pass on upgrading to the 'bus or -11. That's going to cost about $1600 a month in lost income right there. Not playing for sympathy here--just pointing out the LOA has consequences for lots of folks who did not want to work at an FDA.
Do the math bros...32 vacancies x 1/six month = 192 guys to man the FDA (without new hires....) Subtract the mil leave guys and guys with legitimate family limitations, and you probably have at least 250 guys & gals subject to 1 month involuntary Hong Kong vacations. End of the world? Heck--I'd like to see the place again--but like everything else I'd like to be able to pick the time. And I'd like to get more than perdiem on my days off...so me and the mighty 727 will enjoy each other's company another year or two. I was so excited on the last contract when we got to bid for our training dates--that meant 2 months the schedulers could "goon up" and I couldn't bid around were finally free. I'm not ready to now give that back and spend April/Oct or May/Nov or Jun/Dec (ecch!) away for a month at a pop. So--since I can't find a vaccine for STV, I'll look for "safe bidding" by staying where I am.
Anyone else modifiying their bids to avoid STVs?
And to answer your signature line--the answer is "don't bid any widebody or the 757". Sad, isn't it? To get $2700 for the bro's overseas, I'm going to pass on upgrading to the 'bus or -11. That's going to cost about $1600 a month in lost income right there. Not playing for sympathy here--just pointing out the LOA has consequences for lots of folks who did not want to work at an FDA.
Do the math bros...32 vacancies x 1/six month = 192 guys to man the FDA (without new hires....) Subtract the mil leave guys and guys with legitimate family limitations, and you probably have at least 250 guys & gals subject to 1 month involuntary Hong Kong vacations. End of the world? Heck--I'd like to see the place again--but like everything else I'd like to be able to pick the time. And I'd like to get more than perdiem on my days off...so me and the mighty 727 will enjoy each other's company another year or two. I was so excited on the last contract when we got to bid for our training dates--that meant 2 months the schedulers could "goon up" and I couldn't bid around were finally free. I'm not ready to now give that back and spend April/Oct or May/Nov or Jun/Dec (ecch!) away for a month at a pop. So--since I can't find a vaccine for STV, I'll look for "safe bidding" by staying where I am.
Anyone else modifiying their bids to avoid STVs?
11-02-2007, 01:15 PM
#36
Slainge Var'
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Zeppelin Tail Gunner
Posts: 1,530
Originally Posted by Gunter
Ahem...
Maybe they didn't discuss pesky things like rental deposits while on their site seeing tour....I mean fact finding mission.
Maybe they didn't discuss pesky things like rental deposits while on their site seeing tour....I mean fact finding mission.
11-02-2007, 01:18 PM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Posts: 732
Originally Posted by Albief15
While I agree, the reality ain't happening. So where does that leave us?
And to answer your signature line--the answer is "don't bid any widebody or the 757". Sad, isn't it? To get $2700 for the bro's overseas, I'm going to pass on upgrading to the 'bus or -11. That's going to cost about $1600 a month in lost income right there. Not playing for sympathy here--just pointing out the LOA has consequences for lots of folks who did not want to work at an FDA.
Do the math bros...32 vacancies x 1/six month = 192 guys to man the FDA (without new hires....) Subtract the mil leave guys and guys with legitimate family limitations, and you probably have at least 250 guys & gals subject to 1 month involuntary Hong Kong vacations. End of the world? Heck--I'd like to see the place again--but like everything else I'd like to be able to pick the time. And I'd like to get more than perdiem on my days off...so me and the mighty 727 will enjoy each other's company another year or two. I was so excited on the last contract when we got to bid for our training dates--that meant 2 months the schedulers could "goon up" and I couldn't bid around were finally free. I'm not ready to now give that back and spend April/Oct or May/Nov or Jun/Dec (ecch!) away for a month at a pop. So--since I can't find a vaccine for STV, I'll look for "safe bidding" by staying where I am.
Anyone else modifiying their bids to avoid STVs?
And to answer your signature line--the answer is "don't bid any widebody or the 757". Sad, isn't it? To get $2700 for the bro's overseas, I'm going to pass on upgrading to the 'bus or -11. That's going to cost about $1600 a month in lost income right there. Not playing for sympathy here--just pointing out the LOA has consequences for lots of folks who did not want to work at an FDA.
Do the math bros...32 vacancies x 1/six month = 192 guys to man the FDA (without new hires....) Subtract the mil leave guys and guys with legitimate family limitations, and you probably have at least 250 guys & gals subject to 1 month involuntary Hong Kong vacations. End of the world? Heck--I'd like to see the place again--but like everything else I'd like to be able to pick the time. And I'd like to get more than perdiem on my days off...so me and the mighty 727 will enjoy each other's company another year or two. I was so excited on the last contract when we got to bid for our training dates--that meant 2 months the schedulers could "goon up" and I couldn't bid around were finally free. I'm not ready to now give that back and spend April/Oct or May/Nov or Jun/Dec (ecch!) away for a month at a pop. So--since I can't find a vaccine for STV, I'll look for "safe bidding" by staying where I am.
Anyone else modifiying their bids to avoid STVs?
11-02-2007, 01:23 PM
#38
Slainge Var'
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Zeppelin Tail Gunner
Posts: 1,530
Do the math bros...32 vacancies x 1/six month = 192 guys to man the FDA (without new hires....) Subtract the mil leave guys and guys with legitimate family limitations, and you probably have at least 250 guys & gals subject to 1 month involuntary Hong Kong vacations.
Anyone else modifiying their bids to avoid STVs?[/quote]
Unless you are Al Gore, predicting the future can be a tricky proposition. You might be right and you might be way off. You might have dodged 30 days in Hong Kong and you might end up with 2-3 years at NB pay vice WB pay. It's always been a crap shoot. Kinda like our 727 Capt who quit and went to American on 1 Sep 2001, made the call and then went "doh"! Could've turned out different and we'd thought he was a genius.
Anyone else modifiying their bids to avoid STVs?[/quote]
Unless you are Al Gore, predicting the future can be a tricky proposition. You might be right and you might be way off. You might have dodged 30 days in Hong Kong and you might end up with 2-3 years at NB pay vice WB pay. It's always been a crap shoot. Kinda like our 727 Capt who quit and went to American on 1 Sep 2001, made the call and then went "doh"! Could've turned out different and we'd thought he was a genius.
11-02-2007, 01:58 PM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: 777 CAP
Posts: 494
Originally Posted by AerisArmis
Lets see if I've got this right. 1)None of the guys and gals flaming against the FDAs are bidding it. 2)All of you are appoplectic over the thought of being forced to go on an STV. 3)Now, you are united in your opposition to those "fools" (most often used term) that do want to go, getting this new bennie of up to 10k in an apartment deposit? Even though, you all fully realize, the more people who bid it, the less likely that there will be any sort of involuntary STV? It almost seems like some folks want this whole thing to fail and fail badly, even if it means some suffering for our fellow pilots that go over. Wouldn't you rather have this thing become a rousing success? Have guys, senior to you, bid it and get out of your way? Have no new hires sent, meaning less overmanning in most seats? Maybe not.
11-02-2007, 02:22 PM
#40
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 71
from JL email
"Here’s why the Company cannot renegotiate the LOA terms. The ALPA leadership and the Negotiating Committee have established a business relationship with the Company. ALPA and the Company traveled to Europe and Asia together, sat down for 3 months and worked out the current LOA. The Company cannot then go back and renegotiate terms that both sides already agreed on because it sends the wrong message to the crew force, i.e., turn down the LOA and the Company will give you more."
