FTFF

In contrast to another's post earlier, I find the international long haul much easier than domestic next day type of flying. With the long haul, you get 2.0 to 2:45 rest periods and I find that really helps during the flight and it's much easier to get up, move around, and cook some food than at the pax carriers. The layovers are typically 24 hrs or longer so you can catch up to a certain extent - I often get get numerous periods of 8+ hrs.

Domestic nights I find difficult. IF you are on time you can get 2 maybe 3 hrs of sleep (if you are really lucky) in the sleep rooms then back to the hotel no later than 7am (some locations are earlier). I just can't sleep more than 5 hrs during the day regardless if the hotel is quiet, dark, and cool. Then I'm all out of whack during my days off resulting in chronic fatigue. International, I'm tired during my trips and about two days afterward. Ironically, at the regionals I used to be able to fly standups (high speeds, momma trips, whatever you know them as) without much issue. I think the key is to find what you can do easily and try to bid those schedules. The hours of operation at FX/UPS are challenging but could be flown without much fatigue IF scheduling limits and practices would be considered by either company.

Adlerdriver

Not really sure what you're trying to say here. Can you please elaborate?

FTFF

We need scheduling improvements to
mitigate fatigue caused by current scheduling practices. I took the assumption it was a common problem based off postings from guys at both companies.

Adlerdriver

One leg (about an hour or less each way ) out to the layover and one leg back would be a nice start. Cnx with pay for weather or snow events. I won't hold my breath on either one.

I guess the reason for my question is two fold. One, just curious if you have some specific changes you think might really help to mitigate fatigue. Two is based on your own admission that domestically you can't sleep longer than 5 hours during the day. Short of paying you to stay home or getting another pilot to fly half your schedule, I'm not sure what sort of scheduling improvements are going to mitigate your fatigue if you can't sleep in the first place. Flying(working) between ~2200 and ~0700 is unnatural and there's only so much that can be done via work rules to make it manageable. The biggest factor is really good sleep. If you can't get adequate rest during the day on your layover, relying on a recliner nap for a couple of hours during the sort is going to take its toll no matter what your contract says.

FTFF

Perhaps then the contract can ensure the schedules allow guys to get adequate rest during the day and/or rely on sort periods and sleep rooms to meaningfully compensate for a lack thereof. I'll let guys who regularly fly night domestic to comment on that aspect, perhaps on another thread where the focus is on that subject. But even with my limited exposure to them I have more than a few ideas on how to ameliorate the experience without simply removing myself from the problem as you have proposed. My comment was aimed more at the general disregard for circadian rhythms and to suggest to the OP that even though the schedules are currently fatiguing they could be improved.

Brown has pay protections and lots of one- in-one-out pairings.

Adlerdriver

First off, I was joking about cancelling with pay for wx and purple has plenty of pay protections and one-in/one-out trips.

My real point is that you keep referring to what the contract can do for us to help with fatigue, and I would like to understand what you mean.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FTFF

Perhaps then the contract can ensure the schedules allow guys to get adequate rest during the day and/or rely on sort periods and sleep rooms to meaningfully compensate for a lack thereof

Maybe your schedules differ greatly from ours. Unless you’re flying an AM out and back at purple, if things are on schedule, you’re usually at the hotel by early morning.
If you show up in the hotel lobby sometime around sunrise, immediately get a room, it’s quiet, with a nice bed, good curtains and you don’t need to be back at the jet for 13 to 15 hours – what more can written words on a contract do for you to ensure you get adequate rest during the day? That’s kind of up to you, isn’t it? Back at the hub, if you have access to a quiet sleep room, with clean linens, a bed, a phone for a wakeup call and shower facilities – again, what is the contract going to do to ensure you get a nap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FTFF

But even with my limited exposure to them I have more than a few ideas on how to ameliorate the experience without simply removing myself from the problem as you have proposed. My comment was aimed more at the general disregard for circadian rhythms and to suggest to the OP that even though the schedules are currently fatiguing they could be improved.

I’m really asking (and have several times). What “scheduling limits and practices” and “scheduling improvements” do you have in mind that would help mitigate fatigue? We’re all in the same biz and unfortunately our contract is what it is for a while. You say you have more than a few ideas on how to “ameliorate” the domestic night freight experience we’ve all done at one point or another in our time at brown or purple. Let’s hear them.

In my experience, the “general disregard for circadian rhythm” occurs on the international side of things at Fedex. Flying around Asia for 10 hours of duty all night and landing at NRT at 0800L and leaving 24 hours later to fly another 10 hours all day is the definition of circadian disregard. From a scheduling perspective, it’s highly efficient since the two guys who brought the flight in 24 hours ahead of you are ready to take your jet and start their work day. Ending those would be high on my list of contract changes – but that would mean more crews, higher costs in the name of safety. Maybe next time.

Domestically, at least you swap your body clock to nights (as best one can) and stay that way for the week.

Both situations are going to create fatigue and there’s only so much a contract can do to mitigate that. Putting limits on numbers of legs, duty period length, and ensuring proper rest facilities can all be put in writing (and it is). If you can’t sleep when you’re given the opportunity, I don’t see how you can point a finger at the contract and cry foul.

You had some pretty good advice in your first post. “Find what you can do easily and try to bid those schedules”. It sounds like domestic ain’t your bag, since you can’t sleep during the day. I prefer international as well, but, as I’m sure you know, that has its own set of challenges. When I did fly domestic, I was able to sleep in the day. It was rare that I didn’t get at least 7 hours and 8-9 was pretty normal. I didn’t bother trying to nap on the turn at the hub for fear of ruining my day sleep (plus I usually felt pretty good anyway) - lucky I guess.

Tanker-driver

At brown there are more than a few lines where you'll routinely find yourself flying 180 degrees off of what you just did. For instance a flight leaving out of Louisville in the afternoon for ONT, followed by a 2100 show for the next go which is a slog out to PHL with a couple hours on the ground, then back to SDF. Two sleep cycles in 24 hours is pretty difficult. Or, ask the guys who fly it about the OAK death march. These are schedules where it is virtually impossible to get decent rest. In fact, I'm surprised there aren't more fatigue calls on them, but that's another story. Sounds like at FDX, it may be a bit easier. I think this is the contract language FTFF is talking about.

MaxKts

No, we have those at purple also, I think Adler has just forget about them!

Adlerdriver

I'm not claiming ANY expertise in every facet of our schedules and I know there are bad ones. I even gave an example of one of my personal gripes being the 24 hour layover (or 180 degrees off as Tanker -driver put it so well). Those are bad juju no matter where on the planet you are encountering them.

I was simply asking for some specifics because I would like to know how we can make things better.

My only issue with some of Mr. FTFF's complaints were that they seemed to mostly be the result of his inability to sleep more than 5 hours during the day. I guess my mistake was assuming he was talking about a basic series of night hub turns over the course of a week rather than some of the "throw a dart at the calendar" schedules that get made up out of the leftovers. If you have a reasonably stable, homogenous night schedule that doesn't have crazy 180 flops to your duty times and you can't sleep on your layover - it's going to suck and nothing in the contract is going to change that. My apologies if I went off on a unrelated tangent.

Whale Driver

When, we as an industry, start calling in fatigued whenever we are tired regardless of location or where in the trip we are will it force a change in practice. Nothing will ever change as long as the jet moves.