Aaaaah, I see......had me confused there....but then again I've been up all night and therefore easily confused. :)

Why only match FedEx? We're far more profitable a company; we should be negotiating pay that is 15 to 20% above the FedEx pay rate sheet.

I think our negotiators will send us a POS T/A that we'll have to stamp "no" to.

Yeah, I meant initiation fees regarding union dues.

15-20% more than FedEx for FO would be pushing it. But I agree if FO pay is below the FedEX widebody scale, I'll be voting no. More and more newhires are getting off probation and it is changing the dynamics of the pilot group. Call me a dreamer, but I think a TA will come next month and it will be one that we all will be somehat happy with.

See that's the thing that makes me mad. Evidently a contract was almost done in Dec but the company backed off from the FO pay rates. Now the senior negotiating dudes are ready to sacrifice FO pay in order to get a beefed up A plan in order for the contract to be finalized. They expect us to strike for their retirement pensions but will sell our pay rates down the river to get it done. They''ll have you believe it's complicated and that you can't look at your potential current pay rates when judging the TA. They want you to see the capt pay scales. FedEx gets 117 the second year, why can't we?

Also, with the age 65 rule coming, it will mean an even longer time to upgrade. That's why FO pay rates need to be better than FedEx's not worse. We will spend so much longer in the right seat than our FedEx peers. It's almost forbidden to talk about the FOs being screwed so the old guys get a pension. You can read all the guys on the B&G blast FO concerns all the time. A great contract is worth waiting for and I encourage everyone to vote no on any TA that has FO pay beneath FedEx's widebody scale!

Yes it is true I had to deal with it. My intent of the statement was not that everyone should because we had too. I was trying to state that we ALL got to enjoy first year pay and I don't blame my fellow line pilots for it. I too think first year pay should go up. I also dont want someone else to go through what you did during your first year. I however question if UPS thinks the same way we do on this issue.

That's not true. 26k this year is significantly less than 26k five years ago. Due to inflation the equivalent salary in 2001 compared to $26,000 today is only $22,000! $26,000 in 1995 is equal to $36,000 today. Any way you look at it first year pay sucks now, it sucked in the past, and it will suck in the future. The point is that we should not be paid less than our peers just to avoid a strike so the older guys can retire.

I didn't mean it should or would continue. I was trying to state that it is nothing new and most at UPS have had to deal with it.

The list of things that FedEx has better then UPS is long indeed. I am partially to blame for this as I voted for the contract in 92 and being sort of new at the time had no idea about the slope issue. I've paid the price and hopefully you through luck of timing and being more aware will not have too.

If we get a TA that contains huge pension gains at the expense of FO pay scales, scheduling, scope, etc., it will get voted down. Pilot demographics will take care of that.

Your point is taken. Actually it is worse then your example. My first year pay was somewhere like 29k which would be much more in todays dollar. I'm sure this and time have effected my views.

I agree that you should not be paid less then your peers. Lets hope if/when we get a TA it will be fair to all and treat all of us equally.

I'm with you bro. My thing is.......we should be fighting for all of it....retirement, FO pay increase, etc. My thing is by the time I (and many of my peers) get to retirement age, we will have been through a few contracts. By then we will be probably saying Plan what? I don't think the A Plan will be there for a lot of us and in the meantime we sacrificed FO pay for it.....I DON'T THINK SO! I will be voting NO....I don't care what the senior guys tell me.