Go Back   Airline Pilot Central Forums - Find your next job as a Pilot > >
Cargo Part 121 cargo airlines
 

Welcome to Airline Pilot Forums - Connect and get the inside scoop on Airline Companies

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ. Join our community today and start interacting with existing members. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free.


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 04-10-2006, 11:52 PM   #1  
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
 
To Stay or Go's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Posts: 135
Default Why UPS needs a new contract...

And also why the FO pay slope needs to be fixed.

“Don’t worry about second or third year pay. You chose UPS for the Captain pay.” This is one of several unbelievably stupid things I have heard. Others have been, “this contract is about righting past wrongs and making UPS own up to their promises from 1988” and “we better not reject a TA because then the mediator and NMB may force a worse deal on us or leave us in indefinite recess.”

I’d like to address these three points. In the table below, I have displayed the time value of money as applied to the first 10 years FO pay at UPS and FedEx. Keep in mind that at FedEx the upgrade time is about 5 years and they have a wide and narrow body scale. I have done the comparison with their wide-body scale since we are primarily a wide-body airline. (The DC-8 may not technically be a wide-body, but it carries a helluva lot and we only have 17 or so 727s, which will be long gone by the next contract anyway.)


The first column is the year of service.
The second column is UPS yearly income.
The third column is FedEx yearly income.
The fouth coulmn is UPS income from respective year in the year 2026 at 3% annual interest.
The fifth column us FedEx income from resepective year in the year 2026 at 3% annual interest.
Year 1 . 26,000 50,700 47,000 92,000
Year 2 . 74,100 114,075 130,000 200,000
Year 3 . 79,950 114,075 136,000 194,000
Year 4 . 89,700 117,000 148,000 193,000
Year 5 . 94,575 118,950 152,000 191,000
Year 6 . 99,450 121,875 155,000 190,000
Year 7 . 104,325 123,825 157,000 188,000
Year 8 . 109,200 126,750 160,000 187,000
Year 9 . 115,050 128,700 164,000 184,000
Year 10 . 119,925 132,600 166,000 184,000
$1,415,000 $1,803,000

Second, this contract is about the future, not the past. I appreciate the sacrifices that the 88ers made for our union. They deserve all the respect and thanks in the world. But this contract will not pass if it bloats the A plan at the expense of FO compensation. It’s not fair, equitable, and feasible given the pension crunch going on in America today. UPS should not have to expend those kinds of retirement incomes. The managers get that kind of pension but that is beside the point.

I often hear IPAers blast FedEx by saying that their scope clause is weak and their jobs are at risk. Why is it then that upgrade at FedEx is twice as fast as it is here? When reviewing the above numbers keep in mind that the FedEx guys will be at the captain scale at year 5.

If our TA comes back and it is less than the current FedEx contract every single FO should vote no. There are many aspects to a contract but bottom line is that we get 975 hours pay per year minimum and FedEx guys average between 950 and 1000. Why the hell should we get less than our peers at FedEx? What is a great A plan worth if you earn millions of dollars less over your career? Especially since the chances of it still being there in 20 years is nill. And on a final note, the military has unmanned aerial vehicles launching hellfire missiles over Afghanistan right now. How long before technology produces an unmanned A380 cargo aircraft? I predict 20 years, which means we need to secure our futures with a FedEx type contract now!!!

Last edited by To Stay or Go; 04-11-2006 at 12:03 AM.
To Stay or Go is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2006, 06:25 AM   #2  
Freightmama!
 
Freightpuppy's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 2,880
Default

Who the heck said "don't worry about FO pay"? Are they crazy? I would think it would be a captain that said this.
Freightpuppy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2006, 05:30 PM   #3  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: CA 767
Posts: 400
Default

My opinion is that the eventual TA we recieve will be turned down. Because, just like in 1997, the young will be fed to the lions. This Contract is for the top 30% at the expense of the lower 70%. Lets pray were smart enough to read it, look at Art.13, and shove it back up their butts. I for one am sick of forced overtime and sleeping on floors. And Jim and Cindy were not the ones we should rely on to fix it. Tom's First major mistake. And now it's up to us. Unless you want to die at 62.
Nashmd11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2006, 03:02 AM   #4  
New Hire
 
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: B-747 Captain
Posts: 4
Default first year UPS pay

I recently talked to a UPS Captain about the the horrible pay rate for new hires at UPS. He said that their pilot group negotiates only for second year pay and up because new hires are not represented by the union nor do they generate dues for the union.

He felt that first year pay was the responsibility of the company and it was up to management to either raise first year rates to attract quality pilots, or leave the rates low and take their chances.

An interesting perspective, but it seems to me that once these new hire pilots start paying dues their second year, they will have by then developed a poor view of their union and fellow pilots.

A weak start to the union's relationship with their new members.
DoubleA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2006, 03:26 AM   #5  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Airbum's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Posts: 574
Default

I also feel that first year pay is the responsibility of UPS mgt. I guess I thought poorly of UPS mgt for the low pay and not the line pilots. As for the slope yes it would be nice if it was fixed. However has not every line guy lived through the same thing?
Airbum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2006, 05:53 AM   #6  
Gets Weekends Off
 
L'il J.Seinfeld's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: Brown
Posts: 986
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleA
I recently talked to a UPS Captain about the the horrible pay rate for new hires at UPS. He said that their pilot group negotiates only for second year pay and up because new hires are not represented by the union nor do they generate dues for the union.

He felt that first year pay was the responsibility of the company and it was up to management to either raise first year rates to attract quality pilots, or leave the rates low and take their chances.

An interesting perspective, but it seems to me that once these new hire pilots start paying dues their second year, they will have by then developed a poor view of their union and fellow pilots.

A weak start to the union's relationship with their new members.
I would beg to differ that UPS is indeed attracting "quality pilots". Also, new hires do pay union dues, but are not represented by the IPA.
L'il J.Seinfeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2006, 05:56 AM   #7  
Gets Weekends Off
 
L'il J.Seinfeld's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: Brown
Posts: 986
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airbum
I also feel that first year pay is the responsibility of UPS mgt. I guess I thought poorly of UPS mgt for the low pay and not the line pilots. As for the slope yes it would be nice if it was fixed. However has not every line guy lived through the same thing?
Eating crap is not something that should continue just because someone did it before. There is a significant problem when FedEx pays a 2d year pilot $41,000 more than a UPS pilot flying the exact same airplane!!!! (A300)
L'il J.Seinfeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2006, 08:16 AM   #8  
Freightmama!
 
Freightpuppy's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 2,880
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airbum
However has not every line guy lived through the same thing?
I second what Lil J said. That is bull. If you have this attitude things will never change with anything. Just because you dealt with it, doesn't mean every poor schmuck behind you should. Talk about a selfish attitude. I am off first year pay in a little over a month and I still think 1st year pay needs to go up. I had to work 2 jobs this past year just to get by. Why would I want someone else to go through that?
Freightpuppy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2006, 08:17 AM   #9  
Freightmama!
 
Freightpuppy's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 2,880
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by L'il J.Seinfeld
Also, new hires do pay union dues, but are not represented by the IPA.
We do??????
Freightpuppy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2006, 08:41 AM   #10  
New ride...
 
1800 RVR's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Apr 2005
Posts: 525
Default

Quote:
Also, new hires do pay union dues, but are not represented by the IPA.
Me thinks L'il J is talking about the initiation fee we paid when we first came on.
1800 RVR is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
 

 
Reply
 



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
UPS shares fall 14% Freighter Captain Cargo 29 05-22-2007 07:51 AM
UPS fall hiring update Freight Dog Cargo 18 08-14-2006 07:15 AM
More on UPS mail contract Browntail Cargo 7 06-28-2006 05:23 PM
Polar contract negotiations Freighter Captain Cargo 3 08-03-2005 03:19 PM
UPS-IPA contract talks Freighter Captain Cargo 0 07-05-2005 09:50 AM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 08:56 AM.


vBulletin® v3.9.3.5, Copyright ©2000-2019, MH Sub I, LLC dba vBulletin
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Website Copyright 2000 - 2017 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1