PastV1

OK, for the new guys here......

1) How does a higher pay rate for the 777 improve my retirement? Many people max. out their high 5 in the MD/Airbus and even the Boeing.


Ans. Not sure when you got here but your A-Fund retirement is based on your high 5 of the last 15 with a cap of 260K. Ever wonder where that cap started at? Ummmm... Try 170K (Again, bold for your guys not using all of you college educated brains!)

If you assume ( and you know what happens when you assume) that the 260K cap will never increase your lost. So, lets look back at what the cap used to be and "Guess" that it will increase in the future. So an increased 777 rate will improve your retirement!


2) Since I don't have a crystal ball, explain to me why you think we will all be flying 777's someday. Maybe the air freight market has matured. Maybe we will be flying smaller planes intra-Asia and just using the 777 for a few key long haul routes.


Ans: At some point the 11 will have to be retired (MD-10's probably sooner). Or at least there are very few left to buy to increase our fleet should we need more of them. The logical replacement would be the 777. Boeing will eventually open up a P to F mod line for the older "100' 777's. Meaning that at some point the 11 will retire and we will be in 777's with a common type to fly to NRT or to STL like we do now in the 11/10.


3) I (we) already played that game with the VEBA deal.

Ans: Do you get VEBA also?

TheBaron

That works for me. Make them the same across the board. You cant argue that the 777 deserves more pay because of the trips it will be flying, and then ignore the fact that an Airbus crew flying from Memphis to Ottowa makes the exact same as an MD-11 crew flying from Mumbai to Subic. We don't have an equitable pay scale and paying the 777 more for less work will just add to that problem.

PastV1

Dude,

Pull your head out of your tush! With that logic we should all be flying the 777, MD11, Light Twin (A300), The VLJ (Very Light Twin 757) for the same rate as an RJ pilot doing 6-7 legs a day thru the same nasty front with the same bad vis on landing!

It's about productivity for the company. The 777 has a lot and the 727 has a little. (Former 727 guy here so no offense intended! )


Having an single pay rate just lowers your back end earnings along with your A-fund.....

Yes, I know the time value of money...

AFW_MD11

The following is my opinion and my way of venting some of the angst I have been stewing over the last 24 hours.....thanks for the venue to vent - and please, let me know if you think I'm totally out to lunch.......

Mushroom.....that is, in fact, why they have said they are doing it - quote from their letter to the union "in order to prevent or delay a furlough, we will be reducing......"

The negative you are searching for is this - at least I think this is the crux of the matter - if the company arbitrarily invokes section 4.A.2.b. and the union grieves it and wins, the company could stand to be forced to repay all the BLGs (line buyups) that they arbitrarily took away PLUS a "fine" or judgement ($$$) to the uion for willingly and maliciously violating the contract - then go back to square one and try to come up with another lame-brained solution to the problem they've created.

That's the dice the company is rolling here. That's why they've waited until now to try it - it's a very thin sheet of ice to go skating on. But, they're out there now - skating away.....

The company is trying to bluff the pilot group into believing they have a contractual right to lower MBPGs whenever they see fit - as long as they use the magic phrase "in order to prevent or delay a furlough" - they don't.

There must be evidence of this need - according to the "original intent" of the drafters of this section of the contract (FPA as stated by the Negotiating Committee Chairman)

The union has called their bluff stating that the company hasn't shown evidence of overmanning and/or need to and/or capability to furlough and still continue operating the airline - (all of the HKG FOs, 50% + of the ANC FOs, most of the 727 SOs and a lot of 727 FOs, etc....) - they would have to cease operations or reshuffle everyone (ala last cancelled abortion of an excess bid) - which would take years and millions of $$$ to realign everyone.

therefore, the company doesn't have the contractual right to lower MBPGs and stop buying up lines - they CANNOT furlough now without shutting down the whole operation - so invoking 4.A.2.b. isn't "preventing or delaying" anything.

We will all have to wait and see what the arbitrator thinks. Meanwhile the company has granted themselves the right to stop buying up lines until the arbitration has been decided.

Can you say "retro pay"?

My 2 cents.

FDXLAG

So you know the time value of money but you don't care?

If we had Deltas system of assigning different rates for every seat based on productivity I would say your argument is logical. We don't. We have an A team and a B team pay scale. The fact is the UPS system results in UPS paying more hourly pay per pilot than purple does. Isn't that a good thing?

TheBaron

1) I do assume that the 260k cap will increase. I also assume that all pay rates will increase, so the Airbus and MD crews will still get their high 5.

2) I don't think we will be flying 777's in the domestic market except for a very few exceptions. Where we do fly them in Conus, they will replace multiple smaller airplanes and cause a reduction in crew force. I'm not a believer in perpetual growth within a finite system. Sorry.

3) CBA 27.H.7.B2 makes me think...NOT. The way I read and understand it, we are paying 50 cents/hour for those that reached the age of 53 before January 1, 2007. I'll probably have to work to 65 to get my high 5 and then will go straight to medicare and never see a return on my contributions (other than the warm fuzzy I get from knowing I helped out another pilot.)

SpoolDaddy

AFW MD, I hope you are right. Everything you say definitely makes sense. I've just been crushed in arbitration before (Alaska-Kasher award). Growing up a short kid with a big mouth who played contact sports I also know the value of drawing first blood. In this business, that is almost always in the Companies court. Unfortunately, much may rest on our response, or very little may rest on our response, as I learned during my last arbitrated experience.

Great post Bro.

R1200RT

What about the huge excess, train the new ANC and HKG guys first and furlough the rest before they are trained.

PastV1

So how big does the jet have to be before you cry foul on the pay rate? 5.1 mil pounds?

At some point we have to break out the larger A/c type. If we agree to WB rates for the 777 because it is only 130K more in MTGW than the 11, then what happens when we get the 747-8 at 130k more MTGW than the 777? We will wind up increasing the productivity of the larger A/C pilots to infinity. At some point we have to make a stand wrt the pay rates of more productive A/C. Now is the best time we have ever had to make that stand....

TheBaron

I'm guessing you bid the 777?
Where was your pitch fork and torch when it was decided the little ol' A310 was as productive as the MD-11? If it was about productivity we would have a dozen different pay scales.