Poker, the 777, and our paychecks
01-01-2009, 04:43 AM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: MD-11 FO
Posts: 608
Originally Posted by 990Convair
Not trying to be overly sure here, but I feel certain the "F" word will only be used as a "shock and awe" threat to force our MEC to push a sub-standard 777 LOA our way.
One thing is certain. Should we stand strong and not vote in a sub-standard 777 LOA, especially in light of the Christmas turd under our tree this year from management, Mr Smith will be fit to be tied.
Can you imagine the conference call?
FS - "P.....what's the status on the 777, are we ready to introduce the aircraft on the MEM-HKG route?"
PC - "Ummm, Mr Smith, due to macro-economic decisions and efforts to mitigate financial pressures, I inadvertently woke the sleeping giant, also known as UNITY. Thus, you won't be able to fly your shiny new 777's any differently than you do your MD-11's"
FS - "P, get your butt over to my office at Hacks, NOW!"
One thing is certain. Should we stand strong and not vote in a sub-standard 777 LOA, especially in light of the Christmas turd under our tree this year from management, Mr Smith will be fit to be tied.
Can you imagine the conference call?
FS - "P.....what's the status on the 777, are we ready to introduce the aircraft on the MEM-HKG route?"
PC - "Ummm, Mr Smith, due to macro-economic decisions and efforts to mitigate financial pressures, I inadvertently woke the sleeping giant, also known as UNITY. Thus, you won't be able to fly your shiny new 777's any differently than you do your MD-11's"
FS - "P, get your butt over to my office at Hacks, NOW!"
Why are we, once again, wasting negotiating capital to improve the financial lives of pilots senior enough to hold the 777 to the detriment of the rest of the group? The 777 isn't much bigger than the MD-11 and the flying will be relatively easy. If this does go to arbitration, we are toast. Take a gander at what other 777/747 pilots at the legacies get paid...that's what the arbitrator will do. 777 LOA is the wrong battle to be fighting IMHO.
01-01-2009, 06:24 AM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: 757 Capt
Posts: 2,418
Certainly don't know what the arbitrator will say once one becomes available.
But, I would argue that the 777 carries 15% more payload 30% farther than the MD.
And, in 5-10 years the pilots senior enough to hold the 777 will be the 38%'ers as we approach ND status so why do I want to shoot myself in the foot now just to spite those bidding it right now. I'd virtually guarantee that none of them give a damn what my opinion of anyone bidding a plane we don't have a payrate for.
And if the arbitrator is comparing our hourly wages compared to the legacies....then should be adding a similar percentage ontop of the 777
for example, DAL 12 yr Capt pay 767/A330 is 181, FDX 12 yr is 232....so, about 28% greater.
DAL 777 pay is 191, adding 28% puts you at 244....FDX A380 payrate is 248
But, I would argue that the 777 carries 15% more payload 30% farther than the MD.
And, in 5-10 years the pilots senior enough to hold the 777 will be the 38%'ers as we approach ND status so why do I want to shoot myself in the foot now just to spite those bidding it right now. I'd virtually guarantee that none of them give a damn what my opinion of anyone bidding a plane we don't have a payrate for.
And if the arbitrator is comparing our hourly wages compared to the legacies....then should be adding a similar percentage ontop of the 777
for example, DAL 12 yr Capt pay 767/A330 is 181, FDX 12 yr is 232....so, about 28% greater.
DAL 777 pay is 191, adding 28% puts you at 244....FDX A380 payrate is 248
01-01-2009, 05:22 PM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: 11 Capt
Posts: 509
Originally Posted by TheBaron
Sorry...I must have fallen asleep during that class.
Why are we, once again, wasting negotiating capital to improve the financial lives of pilots senior enough to hold the 777 to the detriment of the rest of the group? The 777 isn't much bigger than the MD-11 and the flying will be relatively easy. If this does go to arbitration, we are toast. Take a gander at what other 777/747 pilots at the legacies get paid...that's what the arbitrator will do. 777 LOA is the wrong battle to be fighting IMHO.
Why are we, once again, wasting negotiating capital to improve the financial lives of pilots senior enough to hold the 777 to the detriment of the rest of the group? The 777 isn't much bigger than the MD-11 and the flying will be relatively easy. If this does go to arbitration, we are toast. Take a gander at what other 777/747 pilots at the legacies get paid...that's what the arbitrator will do. 777 LOA is the wrong battle to be fighting IMHO.
There is more to the 777 than pay rates. The only thing the company can take to arbitration is the "Rate" not the rules. Therein lies our upper hand....
Last edited by PastV1; 01-01-2009 at 07:04 PM. Reason: Spanked by Vagabond...:) Actually she edited... Have to try that again! ;)
01-01-2009, 05:34 PM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: MD-11 FO
Posts: 608
Originally Posted by kronan
Certainly don't know what the arbitrator will say once one becomes available.
But, I would argue that the 777 carries 15% more payload 30% farther than the MD.
With that logic in mind, why doesn't the MD pay a premium over the Airbus? We carry a lot more than 15% extra payload and a lot more than 30% farther. That battle was already fought and decided when we accepted a single WB scale. The only way to go is extra pay for the Ultra long flights.
And, in 5-10 years the pilots senior enough to hold the 777 will be the 38%'ers as we approach ND status so why do I want to shoot myself in the foot now just to spite those bidding it right now. I'd virtually guarantee that none of them give a damn what my opinion of anyone bidding a plane we don't have a payrate for.
I'm a 38%er and don't agree with you. Why should we waste capital to improve the pay of a small group of pilots and not the group as a whole? The 777 piece of pie (with 15 airplanes) is too small for everyone to have the opportunity to fly it.
And if the arbitrator is comparing our hourly wages compared to the legacies....then should be adding a similar percentage ontop of the 777
for example, DAL 12 yr Capt pay 767/A330 is 181, FDX 12 yr is 232....so, about 28% greater.
You forget that the biggest group of 12 year FedEx WB captains are flying the MD...not the Airbus. The 767 isn't close to the MD-11. The way it will be viewed is that FedEx flies the MD-11 for 232/hr and Delta flies the larger 777 for 191/hr. Case closed.
DAL 777 pay is 191, adding 28% puts you at 244....FDX A380 payrate is 248
The 777 is no A-380
But, I would argue that the 777 carries 15% more payload 30% farther than the MD.
With that logic in mind, why doesn't the MD pay a premium over the Airbus? We carry a lot more than 15% extra payload and a lot more than 30% farther. That battle was already fought and decided when we accepted a single WB scale. The only way to go is extra pay for the Ultra long flights.
And, in 5-10 years the pilots senior enough to hold the 777 will be the 38%'ers as we approach ND status so why do I want to shoot myself in the foot now just to spite those bidding it right now. I'd virtually guarantee that none of them give a damn what my opinion of anyone bidding a plane we don't have a payrate for.
I'm a 38%er and don't agree with you. Why should we waste capital to improve the pay of a small group of pilots and not the group as a whole? The 777 piece of pie (with 15 airplanes) is too small for everyone to have the opportunity to fly it.
And if the arbitrator is comparing our hourly wages compared to the legacies....then should be adding a similar percentage ontop of the 777
for example, DAL 12 yr Capt pay 767/A330 is 181, FDX 12 yr is 232....so, about 28% greater.
You forget that the biggest group of 12 year FedEx WB captains are flying the MD...not the Airbus. The 767 isn't close to the MD-11. The way it will be viewed is that FedEx flies the MD-11 for 232/hr and Delta flies the larger 777 for 191/hr. Case closed.
DAL 777 pay is 191, adding 28% puts you at 244....FDX A380 payrate is 248
The 777 is no A-380
01-01-2009, 05:45 PM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: MD-11 FO
Posts: 608
Originally Posted by PastV1
Yea, that makes sense! *uck the 777 pay rates because the senior guys will bid it. Wonder where you will be one day? Sitting in the 777 biatching about why your having to fly it for so little money.... Some of you guys amaze me with your short sightedness.....
There is more to the 777 than pay rates. The only thing the company can take to arbitration is the "Rate" not the rules. Therein lies our upper hand....
There is more to the 777 than pay rates. The only thing the company can take to arbitration is the "Rate" not the rules. Therein lies our upper hand....
I currently benefit quite nicely from the >8 capture. Nice easy 10 hour leg to Sydney, a couple of days off, then up to Subic. I see on average an extra 6-7 hours a month because of it. A pretty good deal for me. But it didn't help the guys doing the hardest part of our job...the ones doing multiple Subic hub turns with minimum layovers. That's why I disagree with the push for special provisions for the 777. Relatively easy flying and demanding to be paid a premium for it yet it will only ever benefit a small portion of the crew force. Give me an across the board pay raise and work rule changes that benefit everyone, not just the elite.
01-01-2009, 06:19 PM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: 11 Capt
Posts: 509
Originally Posted by TheBaron
Some of you guys amaze me with your greed....
I currently benefit quite nicely from the >8 capture. Nice easy 10 hour leg to Sydney, a couple of days off, then up to Subic. I see on average an extra 6-7 hours a month because of it. A pretty good deal for me. But it didn't help the guys doing the hardest part of our job...the ones doing multiple Subic hub turns with minimum layovers. That's why I disagree with the push for special provisions for the 777. Relatively easy flying and demanding to be paid a premium for it yet it will only ever benefit a small portion of the crew force. Give me an across the board pay raise and work rule changes that benefit everyone, not just the elite.
I currently benefit quite nicely from the >8 capture. Nice easy 10 hour leg to Sydney, a couple of days off, then up to Subic. I see on average an extra 6-7 hours a month because of it. A pretty good deal for me. But it didn't help the guys doing the hardest part of our job...the ones doing multiple Subic hub turns with minimum layovers. That's why I disagree with the push for special provisions for the 777. Relatively easy flying and demanding to be paid a premium for it yet it will only ever benefit a small portion of the crew force. Give me an across the board pay raise and work rule changes that benefit everyone, not just the elite.
) fyi.... We now have about 120 11/10 jets... Public math says an increase of 600% (bold type for those of you looking thru the proverbial paper towel telescope for the BIG picture) in the number of jets.Look more than next month down the road. You and a lot of other guys will be flying the 777 and your retirement will be based on what "rate" we agree to now. Each and every pay raise we get in the future (Your retirement pay for those of your who think only the "Senior" guys will retire) will be based on what we get today. Something will eventually replace the 11. Don't think it will be the 767 or the 787. Nothing new is on the board so it will be many years that we will have the 777....
Don't use today's paradigms for tomorrows answers!
Last edited by PastV1; 01-01-2009 at 06:27 PM.
01-01-2009, 06:29 PM
#18
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: We'll see
Posts: 32
Missing the Main Idea
Maybe I'm missing something, but there is absolutely no negative to the company to invoke section 4 of the contract. Why wouldn't they? They've been buying up lines for awhile now for flying that isn't really happening. By invoking section 4 of the contract, they don't have to buy anything up with no downside. It makes perfect financial sense for FDX. I'm surprised the company didn't do it earlier.... They can always say it was to prevent a "furlough".
01-01-2009, 06:53 PM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: MD-11 FO
Posts: 608
Originally Posted by PastV1
Um.. A Small portion of the crew force? When I got on the 11 we had a total of 20! Yes, way back in 96.... How stupid would it have been of me to take the position you now take on the 777 under the guise of it only helping "a small percentage of the crew force"? Had the guys here then had the same opportunity we now have with the 777 and agreed to pay it WB rates due to it "only benefiting a small percentage of the crew force" i.e. "The senior Guys" I'd be livid! (better adjectives Vagabond? ) fyi.... We now have about 120 11/10 jets... Public math says an increase of 600% (bold type for those of you looking thru the proverbial paper towel telescope for the BIG picture) in the number of jets.
Look more than next month down the road. You and a lot of other guys will be flying the 777 and your retirement will be based on what "rate" we agree to now. Each and every pay raise we get in the future (Your retirement pay for those of your who think only the "Senior" guys will retire) will be based on what we get today. Something will eventually replace the 11. Don't think it will be the 767 or the 787. Nothing new is on the board so it will be many years that we will have the 777....
Don't use today's paradigms for tomorrows answers!
) fyi.... We now have about 120 11/10 jets... Public math says an increase of 600% (bold type for those of you looking thru the proverbial paper towel telescope for the BIG picture) in the number of jets.Look more than next month down the road. You and a lot of other guys will be flying the 777 and your retirement will be based on what "rate" we agree to now. Each and every pay raise we get in the future (Your retirement pay for those of your who think only the "Senior" guys will retire) will be based on what we get today. Something will eventually replace the 11. Don't think it will be the 767 or the 787. Nothing new is on the board so it will be many years that we will have the 777....
Don't use today's paradigms for tomorrows answers!
Since I don't have a crystal ball, explain to me why you think we will all be flying 777's someday. Maybe the air freight market has matured. Maybe we will be flying smaller planes intra-Asia and just using the 777 for a few key long haul routes. Only time will tell. Our domestic market was already shrinking, well before this economic crisis hit. Maybe we'll be flying RJ's from Memphis to Souix Falls. I just don't see us with a fleet of 100 777's anytime in the foreseeable future, certainly not before I retire in 14 years.
So while I never said "F" the senior guys, I don't think we should be wasting anything to get them exclusively a better deal. I (we) already played that game with the VEBA deal. There are plenty of other things that can be "fixed" to benefit all of us.
Don't use yesterday's paradigms for tomorrows answers
01-01-2009, 06:56 PM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: 757 Capt
Posts: 2,418
Baron,
I foolishly thought we had 3 payscales. NB, WB, and 380. So, is 380 super wide-body pay, or a premium for ULR Flights. I would argue that we negotiated the payrate with the expectation of flying 16+hours to/from Memphis. And isn't that the future planned deployment of the 777?
My argument is that FedEx payrates are greater than that of DAL for comparable equipment which would logically extend to the payrate of a 777.
Since DAL eliminated the MD from their fleet, hard for me to compare what DAL paid for a MD versus what FedEx pays. I will say anecdotally that the FedEx MD training program was 2-3 times the length of the DAL MD training program.....so, I think it's only fair that FedEx pay more than DAL did.
And, aren't the Delta payscales just starting to approach pre-bankruptcy levels. Why should we argue that we should be paid less just because the majors pay less than we currently receive?
I wasn't here for the MD/A300 pay discussions, I am here for the 777 negotiations, and IMO it does deserve a premium over our existing payrates.
Never said it was a 380, but FedEx seems to think highly of the 777 as illustrated in this quote
“The Boeing 777F will allow FedEx Express to fly directly between major markets and hubs in Asia, Europe and the U.S. with more freight and in less time than it takes today, improving fuel efficiency and lowering total operating costs,” said David J. Bronczek, president and chief executive officer, FedEx Express.
777 is not something I want to fly, but, if we elect to follow the path some folks advocate of accepting it at the widebody payrate.....well, might as well go for the simpler payrate scales UPS has
I foolishly thought we had 3 payscales. NB, WB, and 380. So, is 380 super wide-body pay, or a premium for ULR Flights. I would argue that we negotiated the payrate with the expectation of flying 16+hours to/from Memphis. And isn't that the future planned deployment of the 777?
My argument is that FedEx payrates are greater than that of DAL for comparable equipment which would logically extend to the payrate of a 777.
Since DAL eliminated the MD from their fleet, hard for me to compare what DAL paid for a MD versus what FedEx pays. I will say anecdotally that the FedEx MD training program was 2-3 times the length of the DAL MD training program.....so, I think it's only fair that FedEx pay more than DAL did.
And, aren't the Delta payscales just starting to approach pre-bankruptcy levels. Why should we argue that we should be paid less just because the majors pay less than we currently receive?
I wasn't here for the MD/A300 pay discussions, I am here for the 777 negotiations, and IMO it does deserve a premium over our existing payrates.
Never said it was a 380, but FedEx seems to think highly of the 777 as illustrated in this quote
“The Boeing 777F will allow FedEx Express to fly directly between major markets and hubs in Asia, Europe and the U.S. with more freight and in less time than it takes today, improving fuel efficiency and lowering total operating costs,” said David J. Bronczek, president and chief executive officer, FedEx Express.
777 is not something I want to fly, but, if we elect to follow the path some folks advocate of accepting it at the widebody payrate.....well, might as well go for the simpler payrate scales UPS has
