Poker, the 777, and our paychecks
01-01-2009, 08:03 PM
#31
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Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: 11 Capt
Posts: 509
Originally Posted by TheBaron
1) I do assume that the 260k cap will increase. I also assume that all pay rates will increase, so the Airbus and MD crews will still get their high 5.
2) I don't think we will be flying 777's in the domestic market except for a very few exceptions. Where we do fly them in Conus, they will replace multiple smaller airplanes and cause a reduction in crew force. I'm not a believer in perpetual growth within a finite system. Sorry.
3) CBA 27.H.7.B2 makes me think...NOT. The way I read and understand it, we are paying 50 cents/hour for those that reached the age of 53 before January 1, 2007. I'll probably have to work to 65 to get my high 5 and then will go straight to medicare and never see a return on my contributions (other than the warm fuzzy I get from knowing I helped out another pilot.)
2) I don't think we will be flying 777's in the domestic market except for a very few exceptions. Where we do fly them in Conus, they will replace multiple smaller airplanes and cause a reduction in crew force. I'm not a believer in perpetual growth within a finite system. Sorry.
3) CBA 27.H.7.B2 makes me think...NOT. The way I read and understand it, we are paying 50 cents/hour for those that reached the age of 53 before January 1, 2007. I'll probably have to work to 65 to get my high 5 and then will go straight to medicare and never see a return on my contributions (other than the warm fuzzy I get from knowing I helped out another pilot.)
2) 777 100's are a bit lighter in the MTGW arena than the 11. They can cover the domestic 11 routes much more effeciently than the 11 can today. We'll have more of them for sure.
3) Have to work till 65 to get your high 5?
01-01-2009, 08:07 PM
#32
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Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: 11 Capt
Posts: 509
Originally Posted by TheBaron
I'm guessing you bid the 777?
Where was your pitch fork and torch when it was decided the little ol' A310 was as productive as the MD-11? If it was about productivity we would have a dozen different pay scales.
Where was your pitch fork and torch when it was decided the little ol' A310 was as productive as the MD-11? If it was about productivity we would have a dozen different pay scales.
We fly a dozen diff A/C?
01-01-2009, 08:09 PM
#33
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Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: MD-11 FO
Posts: 608
Originally Posted by PastV1
So how big does the jet have to be before you cry foul on the pay rate? 5.1 mil pounds?
At some point we have to break out the larger A/c type. If we agree to WB rates for the 777 because it is only 130K more in MTGW than the 11, then what happens when we get the 747-8 at 130k more MTGW than the 777? We will wind up increasing the productivity of the larger A/C pilots to infinity. At some point we have to make a stand wrt the pay rates of more productive A/C. Now is the best time we have ever had to make that stand....
At some point we have to break out the larger A/c type. If we agree to WB rates for the 777 because it is only 130K more in MTGW than the 11, then what happens when we get the 747-8 at 130k more MTGW than the 777? We will wind up increasing the productivity of the larger A/C pilots to infinity. At some point we have to make a stand wrt the pay rates of more productive A/C. Now is the best time we have ever had to make that stand....
Pull your head out of your tush!
This is possibly the worst time in history to be making a stand on a pay increase. The economy is in the dumps and will be for the foreseeable future; High unemployment; Every other operator of the 777 makes less than our MD-11 pilots; Historic levels of anti-labor sentiment coming out of Congress (look at how they have been crucifying the UAW.)
I pray the economy improves greatly before our next negotiations begin.
Last edited by TheBaron; 01-01-2009 at 08:18 PM.
01-01-2009, 08:15 PM
#34
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Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: MD-11 FO
Posts: 608
Originally Posted by PastV1
Wasn't here for that. Would have had my pitch fork out had I been. There are advantages to having fewer pay scales. I don't mind the current WB/NB deal. Just think we need to break it out to Jumbo/ULR, WB, NB.
We fly a dozen diff A/C?
We fly a dozen diff A/C?
I say we stick with 2 pay scales and try to get a long haul over ride on top of IPF.
01-01-2009, 08:18 PM
#35
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Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: 11 Capt
Posts: 509
Originally Posted by TheBaron
To steal your earlier quote...
Pull your head out of your tush!
This is possibly the worst time in history to be making a stand on a pay increase. The economy is in the dumps and will be for the foreseeable future; High unemployment; Every other operator of the 777 makes less than our MD-11 pilots; Historic levels of anti-labor sentiment coming out of Congress (look at how they have been crucifying the UAW)
Pull your head out of your tush!
This is possibly the worst time in history to be making a stand on a pay increase. The economy is in the dumps and will be for the foreseeable future; High unemployment; Every other operator of the 777 makes less than our MD-11 pilots; Historic levels of anti-labor sentiment coming out of Congress (look at how they have been crucifying the UAW)
Congress has nothing to do with our current CBA.
Do you know why we didn't take a pay cut after 9/11? While all the other PAX carriers did and our other employees also lost benefits? Because we had a contract. Our company never lost a dime after 9/11 but went hat in hand wanting Gov money. Had we not had a contract the company would have bent us over in a heart beat. We now have the upper hand on the 777 and cannot let it slip away.
Should the need arise to lower the rate of the 777 AFTER we have a rate larger than the 11 then that could be neg but we would have the higher rate and the higher break out for larger/ulr aircraft for the rest of our lives......
01-01-2009, 08:23 PM
#36
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Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 8,047
Originally Posted by PastV1
So how big does the jet have to be before you cry foul on the pay rate? 5.1 mil pounds?
At some point we have to break out the larger A/c type. If we agree to WB rates for the 777 because it is only 130K more in MTGW than the 11, then what happens when we get the 747-8 at 130k more MTGW than the 777? We will wind up increasing the productivity of the larger A/C pilots to infinity. At some point we have to make a stand wrt the pay rates of more productive A/C. Now is the best time we have ever had to make that stand....
At some point we have to break out the larger A/c type. If we agree to WB rates for the 777 because it is only 130K more in MTGW than the 11, then what happens when we get the 747-8 at 130k more MTGW than the 777? We will wind up increasing the productivity of the larger A/C pilots to infinity. At some point we have to make a stand wrt the pay rates of more productive A/C. Now is the best time we have ever had to make that stand....
Does not answer my main point, perhaps I didn't present it well (SOS by mail only). If you want to reward seniority go with a Delta model. If you want to get more money for more pilots go with a UPS model. We have a system that does neither. I vote for more money.
I do not cry foul at the bigger jet bigger pay argument, I am just pointing out that is not what we have at FDX.
01-01-2009, 08:28 PM
#37
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Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: 11 Capt
Posts: 509
Originally Posted by TheBaron
Didn't intend to imply that we fly a dozen different aircraft, but probably a dozen different levels of productivity. Airbus SIBA is different than Airbus domestic is different than Airbus Subic is different than...etc.
I say we stick with 2 pay scales and try to get a long haul over ride on top of IPF.
I say we stick with 2 pay scales and try to get a long haul over ride on top of IPF.
Someone fly's MEM-NRT.. thus going over 12 blk hrs and is a heavy crew. They get the override. You flt MEM-ANC(L/O), ANC-NRT. You both bounce around Asia and head back to MEM via ANC. Who get's the ULR override?
Point 2: We agree to an example 25/hr ULR override. Next time neg come about we have to neg a pay rate % increase. Now we also have to neg a ULR override increase. Can't give up neg capital to get an increase in the ULR rate as it would be unfair to others and the continuous biat.. I mean, complaining on here would continue. With a Jumbo/ULR rate we only need to neg an across the board pay increase. Not an increase for several different items.....
01-01-2009, 08:31 PM
#38
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Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: MD-11 FO
Posts: 608
Originally Posted by PastV1
So when would you like to make a stand? When the PAX guys were making 330/hr on the 777. FDX mgt said "we're not an airline" We are also not in the pax industry. What is your argument to the company when the Pax guys get back to those rates and you agreed to fly the 777 for standard WB rates? What neg capital are you willing to give up to get better rates for the 777?
Congress has nothing to do with our current CBA.
Do you know why we didn't take a pay cut after 9/11? While all the other PAX carriers did and our other employees also lost benefits? Because we had a contract. Our company never lost a dime after 9/11 but went hat in hand wanting Gov money. Had we not had a contract the company would have bent us over in a heart beat. We now have the upper hand on the 777 and cannot let it slip away.
Should the need arise to lower the rate of the 777 AFTER we have a rate larger than the 11 then that could be neg but we would have the higher rate and the higher break out for larger/ulr aircraft for the rest of our lives......
Congress has nothing to do with our current CBA.
Do you know why we didn't take a pay cut after 9/11? While all the other PAX carriers did and our other employees also lost benefits? Because we had a contract. Our company never lost a dime after 9/11 but went hat in hand wanting Gov money. Had we not had a contract the company would have bent us over in a heart beat. We now have the upper hand on the 777 and cannot let it slip away.
Should the need arise to lower the rate of the 777 AFTER we have a rate larger than the 11 then that could be neg but we would have the higher rate and the higher break out for larger/ulr aircraft for the rest of our lives......
01-01-2009, 08:32 PM
#39
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Position: Heavily Involved
Posts: 472
Alright, but consider this for a moment. What if -
1. The company realizes the operation has shrunk 30%
2. The forecast is for it to perhaps get worse before it gets better
3. They are truly 700 overstaffed based on available flying
The more I think about it, maybe they truly just want to furlough. Maybe they interpret the ability to furlough is hinged on just announcing MBPG are at the min...not that the lines will ever get there. They purge the guys they purge, eat the costs of realignment and live to fight another day.
I'm just saying...what if???
1. The company realizes the operation has shrunk 30%
2. The forecast is for it to perhaps get worse before it gets better
3. They are truly 700 overstaffed based on available flying
The more I think about it, maybe they truly just want to furlough. Maybe they interpret the ability to furlough is hinged on just announcing MBPG are at the min...not that the lines will ever get there. They purge the guys they purge, eat the costs of realignment and live to fight another day.
I'm just saying...what if???
01-01-2009, 08:34 PM
#40
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Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: 11 Capt
Posts: 509
Originally Posted by FDXLAG
Does not answer my main point, perhaps I didn't present it well (SOS by mail only). If you want to reward seniority go with a Delta model. If you want to get more money for more pilots go with a UPS model. We have a system that does neither. I vote for more money.
I do not cry foul at the bigger jet bigger pay argument, I am just pointing out that is not what we have at FDX.
I do not cry foul at the bigger jet bigger pay argument, I am just pointing out that is not what we have at FDX.
I want to reward the make all you can for retirement. Should those that got hired at a younger age make less just to increase the earnings of those that got hired later in life with a single pay rate fits all deal? The opposite is also a question. But we now have a chance to get a better rate for the 777 with nothing else on the line. We don't have to give on 727 rates or anything else. Right now 777 rates are a stand alone issue.
