FDX Hong Kong FDA feedback/pitfalls
 

Any HKG based FDX guys on here care to post a few details as to what it truly costs to live over there? Is it commutable if you are senior? How does the tax equalization work? Do you still get the firlst $90K (approx) free of Fed tax? How did the move package work?

Just some of the q's I had. Any other info would be great. Looks like another HKG bid on the horizon.

Thanks.

As far as the tax break, we gave that up with the LOA.

I also wouldn't recommend taking the move package and then planning to commute--it goes against the LOA and could set yourself up for termination. I know there are guys who do it but I wouldn't want to live my life looking over my shoulder. And yes, the LOA is woefully inadequate.

Having been there a bit, do you HKG guys regret bidding it? Will you return as soon as you are able to without penalty? I've heard that people are generally happy there. That wouldn't make it to APC. Let us know what you think, those that are actually there. How painful is the commute? Thanks!

I'm interested in this feedback also. If you guys would let us know how the commute is that would be most helpful.

Move package
 

I wouldn't take the "buy my house" move package, but as I read the LOA, the company will give you $10K up front and $2700/month for an apartment over there. I am just saying if you are in the top 10% you could easily work a 16 on/28 off schedule, staggered with vacation every 4 months. Basically you would be looking at 7 round trips on AA coach to HKG at $1200/RT. What you do on your days off is nobody's biz. The LOA doesn't say I have to live there 30 days a month, just live there. Not too bad when you think about it.

Now, as far as the tax situation, I think you still get the first $130K tax free, just the rest is taxed as though you are in the states. Correct me if I am wrong but if you have an address over there, you are still an EXPAT working abroad, LOA or not.

Chime in here, let's have some info flowing so those that may bid this upcoming HKG can learn BEFORE living it!

Ok... I'll chime in a little... all you ever hear about HKG are the negatives on this forum, so I hope I can give a little positive spin;-)

RE: regret bidding HKG? No. For me it has worked out great! And in general, talking to the other pilots out here, most are happy to be here.

Yes, you do get 10000$ seed money and yes you can live within the 2700.00 allowance, but it won't buy you much. And...unfortunately as the economy has gotten better, the rents have and are rising. I know of many though that pay more than their allowance, but for myself and some others we don't have to cough up anything out of pocket. Depends on where you want to live?

About commuting... I agree with the "what you do on your days off is your business" attitude, and if you are senior enough to bid as such could fairly easily commute. If you buy tickets long enough in advance you can find some good deals on line on RT tix...Nuff said about that!

As far as the Tax equalization goes... Expect to pay what you would pay back home in the states. If you live in a state with no state income tax then you pay no state income tax, if you live in a state with state income tax, then you pay the state income tax. But for sure you will pay whatever your federal income tax is. No more no less. You don't get any expat exclusion, allowance, etc. The Co. gets that. We did give that away in the LOA. Personally I don't have any heartburn with that, I just think it can be a pain in the @#$ sometimes dealing w/ PWC... as it can be with any middle man?

If you come out here with an open mind and a good attitude, you will enjoy it. The flying is fairly easy, the layovers are nice, and if you wanna explore Asia then this is a good place to start from. In general though, I think most of us out here are pretty happy that we came here. Hope this helps
Z

Z,

Thanks for the intel, very much appreciated.

I'm guessing anyone that thinks people are generally happy out here has not attended either of the last 2 union meetings. Some are happier than others. A formerly quick upgrade from FO to Captain certainly helps things. Here are some of my thoughts, as someone who did not receive a pay raise to be here:

Some issues we face:

• Ground trans is not just seriously unpleasant, it's downright unsafe. There have been 3 reported accidents. It is gradually being used less and less as each bid pack is printed, though sadly I believe it will take a fatality for it to be totally removed as an option for the company. (including for reserve pilot and "operationally necessity")
• 2700 is woefully inadequate for housing, let alone when coupled with the costs of tuition and general living expenses. Go to Schnucks and buy a weeks worth of groceries. Then do it in HK. You'll be seriously surprised (not that a weeks' worth of groceries would fit in your fridge here anyway). Interested in living in a apartment building aptly nicknamed "the dorms" as a middle aged male?
• Pairings are nothing special. Think week long trips with 16 hour layovers and night hub turns in CAN. Most are now double DH's (see GT comment above). However, a commercial airline deadhead from HKG to CAN isn't terribly helpful bank-wise or all that pleasant to actually sit through either.
• Be wary when you think you'll just be here for two years. Yes, the LOA specifies a 2 year commitment when one takes the "enhanced" option (the 10K + 2700/mo). However, there has to be a bid and a vacancy that you are able to hold to get out of here. You and your family want to breathe this air for 5 years? Google "Hong Kong pollution". Read it. Then Google "Guangzhou pollution". Read it. Goes from "bad" to "holy **** are you ******* kidding me??!"
• Yes, as stated above, no one has any say where you spend your vacation days/sick days/and days off. This isn't North Korea, East Berlin, or Commie Russia. Passport audits to determine where you spend your free time are not part of the LOA.

My 2C

Overall, I'm happy but.......

The housing allowance is grossly and severely inadequate. Yeah, I know the typical response: "Well, in Memphis nobody pays for my house, why should yours get paid for?" The majority of us are still carrying our stateside mortgage in addition to money out of pocket in HKG. We also need some help with education expenses. We got sold a bill of goods on this one. My garage in the states is bigger than my apartment in HKG.

If you plan to get the $10K seed, housing allowance, commute and not move your family out BE CAREFUL. This can get you in A LOT of hot water. I have heard one pilot is being forced to pay his back. Others are getting regularly harrassed because their wife hasn't moved out, one kid stayed stateside, etc.. The company is serious about this and before its all over someone is going to get fired.

It made financial sense when 4a2b showed up but with BLGs moving back towards normal I don't see the financial benefit (unless you are on the panel). My opinion is most of the takers are already here. I don't think the MD11 base will fill (right seat) without some more $ for housing and bone thrown in for education.

Having said all that, read z's post read skypine's post. Both make very valid points. I like Hong Kong and plan to stay for a while. Its fun but not exactly financially rewarding.

Anyway, my .02

As previously stated, the LOA gave away any chance of one earning "EXPAT" tax status/benefits under IRS rules --- however, I believe the IRS also requires you to spend at least 335 days outside the US every 12 months to qualify for EXPAT status (....this may be prorated across consecutive tax years).

Thus, one couldn't "commute" to an FDA and then return to the US on their days off and expect to qualify for EXPAT tax status like other US citizens who actually work and reside abroad.

So Fedex would lose the expat benefit not the commuter who is under the LOA "normalized" tax rules.

You guys are missing the point with respect to the foreign income tax exclusion, but that's understandable as you haven't dealt with it first hand.

Point: It does not matter one bit how much time you spend in the US.

There are two ways to qualify for the foreign income tax exclusion. Way one, the physical presence test, which is the 335 days outside the US that a previous poster referred to.

Way two, the bona fide residence test. This you qualify for after you have spent 1 full year working outside the US, regardless of how many days you spent in/out of country.

For anyone coming from the states, PriceWaterHouse files an extension for you and does not file your income tax return until you meet the bona fide residence test.

Example:

Say you showed up as a HKG based pilot in September of 2009. Regardless of how many days you spend in the US from September 09 until September of 2010, you WILL qualify for the foreign income tax exclusion on September 30, 2010. PWC files your 2009 tax return in October of 2010, after you have qualified for the exclusion based on the bonafide residence test. So no matter what month you show up in HKG and where you spend your vacation and days off, one year later, you WILL qualify for the exclusion based on the bona fide residence test. Plenty of reading about it here:

Foreign Earned Income Exclusion - Bona Fide Residence Test

As another poster pointed out, it really doesn't matter one way or the other to the pilot, as FedEx has taken away your individual ability to financially benefit from the exclusion; they do.

More accurately, we let them take it away from us when we voted for the FDA LOA. Those of us who actually read the FDA LOA and voted against it were out-voted by the vast majority in MEM who continually act without educating themselves on the facts.

Are you kidding me? No wonder a ****ty LOA passed. The FIE and tax equalization were a huge deal when we were voting on this. Now more than a year later you think you'll still get a FIE?

The lack of participation on the 'basic knowledge' level is disheartening. Especially when this deal passed at 68%.

Take it as a lesson for future 'deals', all I'm sayin...

maybe.....just maybe.....the recent rumors of "improving" the LOA might have a sliver of truth?

anyone heard any of this?

company still wants to open a Euro domicile, but can't except CDG under current LOA.

so, they are forced to re-negotiate a new LOA for CGN or FRA or Zurich, or??.......with possible IMPROVEMENTS to the existing one (that would cover HKG as well)

2 birds w/one stone - cover a new location in Euro.....and entice more folks to bid the MD11 to HKG.....while also repairing some of the damage caused to the folks already in HKG??

is it even a possibility?.....wishful thinking?....

discuss.......;)

I think this is EXACTLY what they are going to do. All you HKG guys should be hammering your reps concerning what you need/want.

Let's hope that we all go into whatever LOA 2 agreement with eyes a little more wide open...

WM

All FDX shareholders and executives who have just cashed in on mega-options are very grateful to you HKG-based folks who have graciously donated your "tax equalization" fees/expat savings to offset the French taxes of our (non-existent) CDG domicile. Way to take one for the team, guys!

My guess is that they maybe only donated the interest the Company earned on the deduction they held over the past year. I believe they needed the take equal scheme to guarantee that they had the cash to pay HK or China the tax that they were asking.

Having said that, we never should have surrendered our right to the tax break; at least not until we negotiated a much better LOA.

Footnote: It is interesting that we have folks who think we still get the break. Lesson; fool me once, etc., etc.!

Interesting even now.
 

No, it is just interesting to see/hear just how many people voted for the LOA without reading, or if not that, reading but not really understanding it. The previous MEC said vote for it... it will not affect me... it will go senior... it was the best we could get/do...:rolleyes:

It was the best HE (and the MEC at the time) could do.

Glad we got new folks in there after that debacle.

what's done is done wrt/the LOA... back to the main topic ... living in HKG.

I guess my main advice is ... check your motives before you bid ...

... Make some coin? Not so much, unless you're bidding out of the back seat in MEM or a young/early Capt upgrade
... Easy place to hideout as the system form changes and commute home at will? With the 777 flying HKG-MEM, it might be easier, but you still have to establish residency in HKG...wife and kids as well, to avoid possible company backlash (as mentioned before). Once here and checked off the squares, go for it..
... You and mama on your own? HKG is an open door to the Far East! The options are wide open for travel and exploration. Many folks are using the "per diem/Hotel in lieu of DH" options to turn a 4 day trip into a 7 day vacation with the wife. Flights are cheap inter-Asia.
... You, mama and the kids? Same as above but the schooling aspect is not something I know about. Folks that have kids here love it and showed up open to the "whole" adventure... good and bad.
... Single? be careful what you ask for !!! With layovers in MNL, CEB, BKK, PEN, and SGN, the world can be your oyster. We have many good layovers but they are getting shorter everyday. Wan Chi isn't too bad either...just saying.

Again, what are your goals and objectives? I was excessed out of ANC and didn't want to go to MEM. I thought a window seat and new adventures in Asia was a better option for me than commuting to MEM and working the slave-ship. I was lucky because I had a choice, albeit a forced one with all the excesses.

$2700/month? not for a family with kids. You'll have to add some out of pocket to make it work. Lots of options for a single person or just you and the wife. Again, depends on your comfort level and how much traveling you want to do. Many folks are just not here alot and traveling all the time. Just need a place to regroup and rest up before the next adventure.

Everything else it about the same as anywhere else... yes the GT to CAN is a pain, but it's still the fastest way up to CAN but it does have it's threats. The DH or train to CAN takes about the same amount of time. The train is on your own dime unless you have bank money. Many folks are using their bank money to smooth out the rough edges and make things fit their schedule. Cell phones/internet, bank accounts, apartment bills, visa's...etc all come with being in a different country. The Company glosses over that...that's what the $10k seed money it for.

Been here for 5 months and haven't really got the hang of it yet. Lots of opportunities to explore...and I guess that's the main point, everything is not about work! Go find it!

P.S. feel free to PM if you want what little info I have...but it's a start

Thanks Cujo for the information.

Mucho gracias Cujo

The good news is, those of us without HKG Happy Faces on can finally take drugs:

FOXNews.com - FAA Changes Rules to Allow Pilots to Take Antidepressants

Maybe the guys with happy faces on were talking them all long in anticipation of this?

THX Cujo.

I'd only come that way if I could be a <50% MD Capt and I don't know if that would still be worth it.

Hey HKG guys/gals,

If you wouldn't mind updating us on the HKG experience it would be great. Just starting to think about it since us in the poolies may be fortunate enough to get a call sometime next year. When the call comes, it appears there might be the option of HKG (MD11 if open by then, or A300 I assume).

What can a super junior, bottom-of-the-barrell guy expect for reserve schedules?

Days on/off?

On reserve, would travel back to the U.S. once a month be possible (not commuting, just to come visit)?

How far could a reservist live from the airport?

2 hour callout?

Is that doable on public transit or does one have to do the company transportation?

How long would you "guess" one would stay on reserve?...assuming hiring somewhat picks up a little...

If anyone would care to share some pictures of their living quarters in HKG, and how much it runs a month, that would be awesome...

Thanks for all the help you guys have provided on this forum!

For all you guys senior to me it sucks. Don't do it.

I'm amazed that there are folks who actually still think there is a expat income exclusion. And no doubt you voted on the LOA without knowing that. Although BC and his entourage never really explained that. Instead they merely stated that "tax equalization" was the "norm" with many companies. Of course nobody asked what the "norm" expat packages those companies offered. But I digress. The tax break is still there for the expats, according to the IRS. However, the individual going to HKG signs a document which in essence, signs those benefits which you, the employee, are eligible for, and gives them to the company.

I wanted to go from SFS to HKG but after running the numbers, it wasn't worth it, to me. Also, the tax breaks the company gets isn't limited to just the foreign income exclusion (which was about $85,000 when I left, not $130K as Convair thought). There are also tax write-offs for the Hong Kong taxes paid and housing paid. I believe the company would get back in excess of $60,000 a year with my "tax equalization." Remember too, they are paying Hong Kong taxes. The write-off for those taxes paid are huge though. For me the company would have paid roughly $65,000/year for me to be in HKG. The tax write offs would return about $60,000/year. I saw the lines for some of the guys that were going to HKG in SIBA status. The deadhead fare was about $6,000 each way. Perhaps going to HKG should not be a financial windfall to the crewmember going there, as BC stated, however, did it need to be a financial windfall to the company at the crews expense? I think not.

Finally, to those thinking of commuting, beware as a couple posts explained. Price Waterhouse does your taxes two ways. One, as if you receive the expat tax breaks. The second, as if you don't live abroad, but rather in the states. The difference is what the company gets. That's simplified to say the least. And I know my former Subic buds are chomping at the bits to correct some errors in what I've said. For whatever misquotes I have stated, I apologize in advance. It's a bit difficult to say you live abroad, if the wife and kids live in the USA. Even harder if one of them is earning an income stateside.

What I have stated is not exact by any means, but it is fairly accurate. As is written on many a financial disclosures, consult your financial consultant first. Money magazine proves every year there are fifty different tax returns from fifty different tax preparers, all running the same numbers for the same hypothetical family.

As a side note, before the LOA was signed, O and the SFS ACP talked to us after a fact-finding mission to HKG. In a span of one hour we had been told at least a half dozen times that someone could rent a decent place in HKG for $3500. Each time the figure of $3500 was mentioned a follow-on "we're not stating the company is going to offer that," was also stated. After the LOA was a done deal I flew with the current ACP in HKG. He told me "the company was willing to pay $4000/month in housing, but the union took the first offer of $2700." That was not second hand news. That was straight from his mouth. Was it true? I don't know. Who cares, I didn't bid it.

Let's just not make the same mistake in opening up MD-11 in HKG, 757 in CGN, or A330 in MIA.


Want it fast?...No LOA...incorporate it in the TA.

That is not what the MEC Vice Chairman thinks.

HKG considerations
 

For those whose entire career has been centered in the US, Europe and/or South America without more than a few "annual" trips to Asia, be forewarned. When you are in Asia, you ain't in Kansas any more, Dorothy.
Asia is a horse of a different color. It's difficult (if not impossible) to bring your personal value sets, wants and desires to Asia and have them met in their entirety. The Asian culture is what it is and has been for a long, long time. They have their "ways" and you'll have two choices when you get there: 1) accept and adapt; 2) suffer.
You will not get the Germantown (Destin Beach; San Diego; you fill in the blank here) palatial house that you have now unless you are independently wealthy and willing to part with a lot of that wealth monthly.
Also, you will probably have to change your vision of personal transportation away from the owned car/SUV/pickup what have you to one of a hired driver or public transportation.
Again, go into this HKG bid with eyes open, not just the wallet open. As stated in previous posts, the FOA may or may not cover your expenses. The money for the upgrade may look great on paper, but not if you have to use the added bump in pay for psychiatric treatments because your expectations were not fulfilled!

You don't need to hire a driver in HKG. You can drive your own car.

A330 in MIA? Do you know something that we don't?

How hard is it to jumpseat on our own FDX planes intra-asia. Say from Hong Kong to KL or Singapore?

Thx

Easy.

I used to jumpseat out of Subic and avoid the scheduled DH Manila bag drag. I know one Subic guy lived in Singapore and another lived in Hong Kong.

I doubt that it has changed, but could be wrong.

That is a good quote, though it occurs to me that several people have been SENT to Hong Kong, and we already know their thoughts.

Coerced, pressured, bullied and threatened...but none were SENT.

...and that's unfortunate.

Why don't they survey the membership on this issue??

Good idea. You need to know where you're starting so you can go in the exact opposite direction.

;)