FDX- Retirement Age and reduced BLGs
07-26-2012, 02:11 PM
#1
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Sep 2010
Position: B777 Capt
Posts: 613
FDX- Retirement Age and reduced BLGs
The age 60 rule has had a different affect on different parts of our pilot group.
Some won the lottery, some got to pay for the other's lottery winnings.
Some think that is now all water over the dam.
That is incorrect.
The age 60 rule is still adversely affecting all those currently less than 60.
Quite a large number of pilots are 'retirement eligible (over 60)' and quite a few of these are in the left seat of the 777.
The company's only choice is to carry more pilots than needed in order to be able to respond to a rush on retirements.
Some will contend that is just a cost the company has to endure, but the real answer is the company passes those costs on to us.
This is done with reduced BLG, and possibly an unneeded entry into 4a2b.
We all earn less each month, just so the over 60 guys can retire at their whim.
Solution:
Keep the current full retirement age of 60 in effect, but install a requirement to give the company a fair notice of retirement date, say 1 year.
The current contract provides for retirement before age 60, but with a penalty of 3% per year for doing so.
That should also be the penalty for retiring between 60 and 65 without giving the company a 12 month notice.
This is not taking money or flexibility away from the over 60 pilot, just adding a requirement to plan your retirement a little ahead of time. (more specifically, a disincentive to jump ship without giving proper notice)
What we all gain is a healthier company with more BLG and more money in our pockets each month while we wait for our turn to retire.
I know this will never even get considered, as ALPA is pretty much a 'senior guys take theirs and screw the junior guys' organization.
Junior guys:
Do you think the flexibility to retire at 60 will still be there when you get there?
Do you think the defined benefit will still be around when you get there?
I hope the answer to both of those is yes, but making this change will first, put money in your pocket every month between now and when you retire, and second, make the current age of 60 less painful to the company, which will make them pushing for a hard 65 less likely between now and when you get to choose your retirement age.
Standing by for the full frontal assault on this subject (and of course working feverishly to upgrade my Mac to MtLion and fix FXeGrid!)
Cheers
appDude
Some won the lottery, some got to pay for the other's lottery winnings.
Some think that is now all water over the dam.
That is incorrect.
The age 60 rule is still adversely affecting all those currently less than 60.
Quite a large number of pilots are 'retirement eligible (over 60)' and quite a few of these are in the left seat of the 777.
The company's only choice is to carry more pilots than needed in order to be able to respond to a rush on retirements.
Some will contend that is just a cost the company has to endure, but the real answer is the company passes those costs on to us.
This is done with reduced BLG, and possibly an unneeded entry into 4a2b.
We all earn less each month, just so the over 60 guys can retire at their whim.
Solution:
Keep the current full retirement age of 60 in effect, but install a requirement to give the company a fair notice of retirement date, say 1 year.
The current contract provides for retirement before age 60, but with a penalty of 3% per year for doing so.
That should also be the penalty for retiring between 60 and 65 without giving the company a 12 month notice.
This is not taking money or flexibility away from the over 60 pilot, just adding a requirement to plan your retirement a little ahead of time. (more specifically, a disincentive to jump ship without giving proper notice)
What we all gain is a healthier company with more BLG and more money in our pockets each month while we wait for our turn to retire.
I know this will never even get considered, as ALPA is pretty much a 'senior guys take theirs and screw the junior guys' organization.
Junior guys:
Do you think the flexibility to retire at 60 will still be there when you get there?
Do you think the defined benefit will still be around when you get there?
I hope the answer to both of those is yes, but making this change will first, put money in your pocket every month between now and when you retire, and second, make the current age of 60 less painful to the company, which will make them pushing for a hard 65 less likely between now and when you get to choose your retirement age.
Standing by for the full frontal assault on this subject (and of course working feverishly to upgrade my Mac to MtLion and fix FXeGrid!)
Cheers
appDude
07-26-2012, 02:48 PM
#5
Organizational Learning
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: Directly behind the combiner
Posts: 4,948
Originally Posted by appDude
Solution:
Keep the current full retirement age of 60 in effect, but install a requirement to give the company a fair notice of retirement date, say 1 year.
The current contract provides for retirement before age 60, but with a penalty of 3% per year for doing so.
What you propose is in essence giving up that right, or imposing a penalty for exercising that right. In other words, it's a concession. Bad headwork.
Sure, The Company would like advance notice of retirements. We might be able to invent a scheme to provide that notice, but giving the notice should be rewarded in some way. Perhaps one way of rewarding the pilot who provides advance notice of his retirement would be to give him credit for the hours in his sick bank which he cannot use or redeem. The more notice provided, the higher the amount of sick bank credit.
If not sick bank, then something else. But whatever it is, it should be equitable to both parties. Company wants prior notice? Fine. What are they willing to pay for that notice?
Originally Posted by appDude
That should also be the penalty for retiring between 60 and 65 without giving the company a 12 month notice.
Personally, I want every pilot to maintain the right to hang up their hat any day they choose. You may be surprised how quickly a §4.A.2.b. "problem" can be solved.
Originally Posted by appDude
I know this will never even get considered, as ALPA is pretty much a 'senior guys take theirs and screw the junior guys' organization.
Originally Posted by appDude
Junior guys:
Do you think the flexibility to retire at 60 will still be there when you get there?
Originally Posted by appDude
Do you think the defined benefit will still be around when you get there?
Originally Posted by appDude
I hope the answer to both of those is yes, but making this change will first, put money in your pocket every month between now and when you retire, and second, make the current age of 60 less painful to the company, which will make them pushing for a hard 65 less likely between now and when you get to choose your retirement age.
Maybe they want 65, or maybe they want 60. I don't see any reason why we should be making their arguments for them, and I absolutely cannot see a reason why we should support imposing a penalty on a pilot for exercising a right he has under the CBA today.
Originally Posted by appDude
Standing by for the full frontal assault on this subject (and of course working feverishly to upgrade my Mac to MtLion and fix FXeGrid!)
Cheers
appDude
Good luck. Might I suggest you get a PC?
.
07-26-2012, 03:31 PM
#8
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: B-777
Posts: 455
Originally Posted by TonyC
Today a pilot is not required to give any notice at all to retire. If he's willing to live with a gap between his last active pilot paycheck and his first retirement paycheck, he can walk away today. Notice is required if he wants to make it a seamless transition.
What you propose is in essence giving up that right, or imposing a penalty for exercising that right. In other words, it's a concession. Bad headwork.
Sure, The Company would like advance notice of retirements. We might be able to invent a scheme to provide that notice, but giving the notice should be rewarded in some way. Perhaps one way of rewarding the pilot who provides advance notice of his retirement would be to give him credit for the hours in his sick bank which he cannot use or redeem. The more notice provided, the higher the amount of sick bank credit.
If not sick bank, then something else. But whatever it is, it should be equitable to both parties. Company wants prior notice? Fine. What are they willing to pay for that notice?
Wait, I thought you wanted them to retire at 60. Now you want to impose a penalty for retiring? That doesn't make sense.
Personally, I want every pilot to maintain the right to hang up their hat any day they choose. You may be surprised how quickly a §4.A.2.b. "problem" can be solved.
Not pointing a finger at you, but that's a common complaint among guys and gals who are too busy raising their young families to volunteer in the organization. Last I checked, votes are not weighted by tenure. The guy off probation gets the same vote as the guy a month, or even a day away from retirement.
Normal Retirement Age in our CBA is 60. In order to change that, our company will have to enter bankruptcy and use the courts to render our CBA worthless, or we will have to ratify a new CBA which changes our Normal Retirement Age. 50% + 1 comes to about 2,100 pilots or so (if everyone voted) to vote in favor of raising the Normal Retirement Age. I haven't found a single one yet. I wouldn't worry about the Normal Retirement Age changing until you find a lot of pilots who want to change it.
I know we'll get to vote on it. See above.
What makes you so sure they'll push for 65? Senior pilots are expensive (highest pay rate) and unproductive (lots of Vacation, sick, disability, etc.). It's not a forgone conclusion that The Company wouldn't prefer to put them out to pasture and hire new guys at the lowest pay rates, lowest rates of sick call, and smallest vacation banks.
Maybe they want 65, or maybe they want 60. I don't see any reason why we should be making their arguments for them, and I absolutely cannot see a reason why we should support imposing a penalty on a pilot for exercising a right he has under the CBA today.
Good luck. Might I suggest you get a PC?
.
What you propose is in essence giving up that right, or imposing a penalty for exercising that right. In other words, it's a concession. Bad headwork.
Sure, The Company would like advance notice of retirements. We might be able to invent a scheme to provide that notice, but giving the notice should be rewarded in some way. Perhaps one way of rewarding the pilot who provides advance notice of his retirement would be to give him credit for the hours in his sick bank which he cannot use or redeem. The more notice provided, the higher the amount of sick bank credit.
If not sick bank, then something else. But whatever it is, it should be equitable to both parties. Company wants prior notice? Fine. What are they willing to pay for that notice?
Wait, I thought you wanted them to retire at 60. Now you want to impose a penalty for retiring? That doesn't make sense.
Personally, I want every pilot to maintain the right to hang up their hat any day they choose. You may be surprised how quickly a §4.A.2.b. "problem" can be solved.
Not pointing a finger at you, but that's a common complaint among guys and gals who are too busy raising their young families to volunteer in the organization. Last I checked, votes are not weighted by tenure. The guy off probation gets the same vote as the guy a month, or even a day away from retirement.
Normal Retirement Age in our CBA is 60. In order to change that, our company will have to enter bankruptcy and use the courts to render our CBA worthless, or we will have to ratify a new CBA which changes our Normal Retirement Age. 50% + 1 comes to about 2,100 pilots or so (if everyone voted) to vote in favor of raising the Normal Retirement Age. I haven't found a single one yet. I wouldn't worry about the Normal Retirement Age changing until you find a lot of pilots who want to change it.
I know we'll get to vote on it. See above.
What makes you so sure they'll push for 65? Senior pilots are expensive (highest pay rate) and unproductive (lots of Vacation, sick, disability, etc.). It's not a forgone conclusion that The Company wouldn't prefer to put them out to pasture and hire new guys at the lowest pay rates, lowest rates of sick call, and smallest vacation banks.
Maybe they want 65, or maybe they want 60. I don't see any reason why we should be making their arguments for them, and I absolutely cannot see a reason why we should support imposing a penalty on a pilot for exercising a right he has under the CBA today.
Good luck. Might I suggest you get a PC?
.
Tony, you have to stop it! This is the second time I find myself agreeing with you in a month
But it's true, we can't be doing the company's work for them. App Dude's idea is a very bad one. BTW, I'm not yet 50 and got affected by the retirement age change like a lot of pilots. JMHO
07-26-2012, 04:30 PM
#9
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: Retired
Posts: 3,717
appDude,
Why do you think that guys are retiring without giving the company any notice? I ask this because you're talking about pilots. The very same guys who will "borrow" their next-door neighbors' USA Today, to save 50 cents. Most pilots are traditionally the cheapest guys anyone knows (not that that's necessarily a bad thing.
) These guys will not retire with no notice, because it means that they will be without a pension for at least 3 months, which in a lot of cases will be somewhere north of $40,000. As well, and perhaps more importantly, if they are married, and their spouse is under 65 years old, that spouse might lose their medical insurance until the company can set that stuff up.
As for the company "carrying" more pilots, they have to and they do anyway, because of sudden deaths, sudden disabilities, training failures, etc, etc. It's a cost of doing business, and they are very good at doing business.
But back to the part about retiring with no notice, which I can't imagine anyone doing. I say this because I believe that as guys get ready to retire, they spend more and more time planning their exits. They contact the company retirement folks, (if they're anything like me) numerous times; they request a FedEx Retirement Pension Benefit Estimate; they talk to their ACP; etc, etc. After all the squares have been filled, then and only then would it make sense to give the company a firm retirement date, and on that date, retire. One interesting fact is that even if one goes through all the steps to retire, they can change their mind, up to their last day, and decide to continue to work.
JJ
Why do you think that guys are retiring without giving the company any notice? I ask this because you're talking about pilots. The very same guys who will "borrow" their next-door neighbors' USA Today, to save 50 cents. Most pilots are traditionally the cheapest guys anyone knows (not that that's necessarily a bad thing.
) These guys will not retire with no notice, because it means that they will be without a pension for at least 3 months, which in a lot of cases will be somewhere north of $40,000. As well, and perhaps more importantly, if they are married, and their spouse is under 65 years old, that spouse might lose their medical insurance until the company can set that stuff up.As for the company "carrying" more pilots, they have to and they do anyway, because of sudden deaths, sudden disabilities, training failures, etc, etc. It's a cost of doing business, and they are very good at doing business.
But back to the part about retiring with no notice, which I can't imagine anyone doing. I say this because I believe that as guys get ready to retire, they spend more and more time planning their exits. They contact the company retirement folks, (if they're anything like me) numerous times; they request a FedEx Retirement Pension Benefit Estimate; they talk to their ACP; etc, etc. After all the squares have been filled, then and only then would it make sense to give the company a firm retirement date, and on that date, retire. One interesting fact is that even if one goes through all the steps to retire, they can change their mind, up to their last day, and decide to continue to work.
JJ
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