FDX: "Fuel Sense", Common Sense, and Safety
08-05-2013, 05:32 AM
#41
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 8,047
Originally Posted by Unknown Rider
I know we're not supposed to squeeze the Yoke too hard, but geez! Don't worry, it's just a yolk.
So riddle me this Batman, are we supposed to send everyone back to training so they can perform windshear profile takeoffs? Because that will drive you to a 15/0 takeoff. What if the climb gradient requires a 15/0 takeoff? We have to pull someone off the trip and deadhead another pilot in who can do the takeoff? The fact is we have all had training on 15/0 takeoffs during initial and a little word of caution should have been all that was needed. Just my opinion.
So riddle me this Batman, are we supposed to send everyone back to training so they can perform windshear profile takeoffs? Because that will drive you to a 15/0 takeoff. What if the climb gradient requires a 15/0 takeoff? We have to pull someone off the trip and deadhead another pilot in who can do the takeoff? The fact is we have all had training on 15/0 takeoffs during initial and a little word of caution should have been all that was needed. Just my opinion.
08-05-2013, 06:11 AM
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Posts: 278
Originally Posted by Unknown Rider
I know we're not supposed to squeeze the Yoke too hard, but geez! Don't worry, it's just a yolk.
So riddle me this Batman, are we supposed to send everyone back to training so they can perform windshear profile takeoffs? Because that will drive you to a 15/0 takeoff. What if the climb gradient requires a 15/0 takeoff? We have to pull someone off the trip and deadhead another pilot in who can do the takeoff? The fact is we have all had training on 15/0 takeoffs during initial and a little word of caution should have been all that was needed. Just my opinion.
So riddle me this Batman, are we supposed to send everyone back to training so they can perform windshear profile takeoffs? Because that will drive you to a 15/0 takeoff. What if the climb gradient requires a 15/0 takeoff? We have to pull someone off the trip and deadhead another pilot in who can do the takeoff? The fact is we have all had training on 15/0 takeoffs during initial and a little word of caution should have been all that was needed. Just my opinion.
"Change is often the genesis of mistakes." I agree!
Last edited by hypoxia; 08-05-2013 at 06:40 AM.
08-05-2013, 06:43 AM
#43
Organizational Learning
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: Directly behind the combiner
Posts: 4,948
Originally Posted by Unknown Rider
So riddle me this Batman, are we supposed to send everyone back to training so they can perform windshear profile takeoffs?
Because that will drive you to a 15/0 takeoff.
A windshear takeoff constitutes what I believe to be an adverse condition where, per the FOM, the Captain should make the takeoff. Not exactly your run-of-the-mill, every day, ordinary, no threat takeoff.
To answer your question directly, no, the only pilots who should be performing windshear takeoffs (the Captains) have already received actual hands-on training in the simulator, not just a reading of a manual or FCIF.
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08-05-2013, 07:02 AM
#44
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Joined APC: Aug 2010
Posts: 278
Originally Posted by TonyC
How many FOs perform windshear profile takeoffs?
A windshear takeoff constitutes what I believe to be an adverse condition where, per the FOM, the Captain should make the takeoff. Not exactly your run-of-the-mill, every day, ordinary, no threat takeoff.
To answer your question directly, no, the only pilots who should be performing windshear takeoffs (the Captains) have already received actual hands-on training in the simulator, not just a reading of a manual or FCIF.
.
A windshear takeoff constitutes what I believe to be an adverse condition where, per the FOM, the Captain should make the takeoff. Not exactly your run-of-the-mill, every day, ordinary, no threat takeoff.
To answer your question directly, no, the only pilots who should be performing windshear takeoffs (the Captains) have already received actual hands-on training in the simulator, not just a reading of a manual or FCIF.
.
08-05-2013, 08:06 AM
#46
Banned
Joined APC: Oct 2012
Posts: 404
Originally Posted by hypoxia
I actually can see a need for reject/go training on the normal 15/0 takeoff! For so many years we have been doing 15/20 takeoffs with a "V1/rotate" callout virtually simultaneously. Now its "V1" one potato, two potato, potato, "Rotate". I'm concerned a "normal" flap 15/0 takeoff at lets say an airport like Burbank with an "engine failure" callout two potato past V1 may result in a reject because the nose is still on the ground. Kind of a muscle memory thing. Could be ugly!
"Change is often the genesis of mistakes." I agree!
"Change is often the genesis of mistakes." I agree!
08-05-2013, 08:07 AM
#47
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Joined APC: Apr 2006
Position: MD-11 Captain
Posts: 4,304
Originally Posted by 2cylinderdriver
The Union should not have any need to defend these pilots if the ASAP program works as advertised.
I've attended Several ALPA (National) Accident Investigation Courses. At one of the courses, an (one of the many) ALPA attorneys came it to give a lecture. He said, "It's my job to protect your license and your job if you're involved in any sort of incident. If you bend metal at FedEx you get FIRED!" In as much as this was an ALPA NATIONAL class (I was the only FedEx pilot), I found his observation quite telling.
The good news ... we finally got an ASAP program!
The bad ... I'm not sure how good a reputation the ALPA attorneys have keeping jobs?
08-05-2013, 08:42 AM
#48
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Posts: 732
Originally Posted by MaydayMark
While I agree with your ASAP observation ...
I've attended Several ALPA (National) Accident Investigation Courses. At one of the courses, an (one of the many) ALPA attorneys came it to give a lecture. He said, "It's my job to protect your license and your job if you're involved in any sort of incident. If you bend metal at FedEx you get FIRED!" In as much as this was an ALPA NATIONAL class (I was the only FedEx pilot), I found his observation quite telling.
The good news ... we finally got an ASAP program!
The bad ... I'm not sure how good a reputation the ALPA attorneys have keeping jobs?
I've attended Several ALPA (National) Accident Investigation Courses. At one of the courses, an (one of the many) ALPA attorneys came it to give a lecture. He said, "It's my job to protect your license and your job if you're involved in any sort of incident. If you bend metal at FedEx you get FIRED!" In as much as this was an ALPA NATIONAL class (I was the only FedEx pilot), I found his observation quite telling.
The good news ... we finally got an ASAP program!
The bad ... I'm not sure how good a reputation the ALPA attorneys have keeping jobs?
We all make mistakes, if you make an honest mistake, report it and were not conducting yourself in a manner to get your report rejected then you should be OK, provided you can complete any required corrective action required by the ERC.
08-05-2013, 09:19 AM
#49
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Joined APC: Aug 2010
Posts: 278
Originally Posted by MEMbrain
You won't be doing a 15/0 T/O out of BUR unless you are EMPTY!
First of all, you missed my point but secondly you proved it! The pilot group as a whole uses "muscle memory" with years and years of doing the same procedures. The now "normal" 15/0 default idiosyncrasies were inadequately addressed other than it saves approximately 30 pounds of fuel for each takeoff! I agree that additional training is needed for the first officer and captain in the now "normal" 15/0 takeoffs and rejects as evidenced by our first tail strike since the implementation of this "normal procedure".
Last edited by hypoxia; 08-05-2013 at 09:30 AM.
08-05-2013, 09:27 AM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 100
Originally Posted by hypoxia
First of all, you missed my point but secondly you proved it! The pilot group as a whole uses "muscle memory" with years and years of doing the same procedures. The now "normal" 15/0 default idiosyncrasies were inadequately addressed other than it saves approximately 30 pounds of fuel for each takeoff! I agree that additional training is needed for the first officer and captain in the now "normal" 15/0 takeoffs and rejects.
