FDX/UPS - Timing is Everything!
11-05-2015, 07:54 AM
#21
Callsign Duchess
Joined APC: Jul 2014
Posts: 92
Originally Posted by Shaggy1970
We got a initial raise and then a 2% increase for every year from 07 to 12, no I don't consider those raises, rather a cost of living increase. So in my opinion the last raise we got was in 06 when the contract was ratified.
11-05-2015, 11:34 AM
#23
Callsign Duchess
Joined APC: Jul 2014
Posts: 92
For FOs hired around ratification, it was more than that...
The 2nd year FO rate effective 1 Jan 08 went up 9% on 1 Jan 09, the 3rd year FO rate in 2009 went up 7.5% in 2010, the 4th year FO rate in 2010 went up 6% in 2011, and the 5th year FO rate went up 4% in 2012.
Of course, those raises fixed the "FO B scale" and were much better than the ~3% that 10+ year captains got 2007-2012...
The 2nd year FO rate effective 1 Jan 08 went up 9% on 1 Jan 09, the 3rd year FO rate in 2009 went up 7.5% in 2010, the 4th year FO rate in 2010 went up 6% in 2011, and the 5th year FO rate went up 4% in 2012.
Of course, those raises fixed the "FO B scale" and were much better than the ~3% that 10+ year captains got 2007-2012...
11-05-2015, 12:48 PM
#24
Row 1A
Joined APC: Dec 2014
Posts: 55
Of course, those raises fixed the "FO B scale" and were much better than the ~3% that 10+ year captains got 2007-2012...
I wish I got a 3% raise. I haven't gotten a raise for the past few years. Anyone above year 15 hasn't seen a raise!
I wish I got a 3% raise. I haven't gotten a raise for the past few years. Anyone above year 15 hasn't seen a raise!
11-05-2015, 02:02 PM
#25
Banned
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: On Food Stamps
Posts: 937
Originally Posted by Whaledrivr
Of course, those raises fixed the "FO B scale" and were much better than the ~3% that 10+ year captains got 2007-2012...
I wish I got a 3% raise. I haven't gotten a raise for the past few years. Anyone above year 15 hasn't seen a raise!
I wish I got a 3% raise. I haven't gotten a raise for the past few years. Anyone above year 15 hasn't seen a raise!
11-05-2015, 09:41 PM
#26
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2014
Posts: 90
Originally Posted by dckozak
Sideshow, your dripping sarcasm is without equal, and I'm sure, on a layover, at a nice bar, it would be great to get into a serious discourse with you.. 
Fedex/ALPA pilots have now twice ratified contracts before and within the time frame that UPS/IPA pilots could have delivered a (better??) contract before we (Fedex pilots) set the bar..........
You didn't
So while the details of what your union will present to you, the pilots of UPS can only be surmised. I predict, based on past events, that with a high probability, two things will happen
1. Your negotiated pay rates will be slightly higher than ours
2. Your leadership will blame Fedex/ALPA for having set the bar too low, and your (unions) hands were tied by our (Fedex) crappy deal.
With the superior leadership and unity at UPS/IPA, how is it that twice over the course of two contracts, we, the weaker pilot group and union, have been put into the position of "setting the bar" for cargo pilots ?? This has been a grand failure of both our pilots groups and no doubt, left lots of money and benefits on the table, to the benefit of our respective employers. Ask your leadership how that happened, than go out and get that contract that will make us eat humble pie. I won't hold my breath waiting.
Fedex/ALPA pilots have now twice ratified contracts before and within the time frame that UPS/IPA pilots could have delivered a (better??) contract before we (Fedex pilots) set the bar..........
You didn't
So while the details of what your union will present to you, the pilots of UPS can only be surmised. I predict, based on past events, that with a high probability, two things will happen
1. Your negotiated pay rates will be slightly higher than ours
2. Your leadership will blame Fedex/ALPA for having set the bar too low, and your (unions) hands were tied by our (Fedex) crappy deal.
With the superior leadership and unity at UPS/IPA, how is it that twice over the course of two contracts, we, the weaker pilot group and union, have been put into the position of "setting the bar" for cargo pilots ?? This has been a grand failure of both our pilots groups and no doubt, left lots of money and benefits on the table, to the benefit of our respective employers. Ask your leadership how that happened, than go out and get that contract that will make us eat humble pie. I won't hold my breath waiting.
I think it's a fair statement to say that UPS and FedEx, while being separate companies, do provide a footprint of whomever signs first for the second contract.
IMHO, the chances of UPS signing first was/is zero. If the FedEx contract would have dragged out another two years? I believe we would be at it those two years +.
Why do I feel this? Unfortunately I have to reference the last contract negotiations, with the ultimately reduced hourly pay scale after FedEx signed their contract. This became the footprint for UPS labor in our contract negotiations. Let FedEx sign first and we will go from there at UPS negotiations.
If people don't think UPS is intimately aware of the fractured pilot group at FedEx (independent contractors as was previously coined), people would be wrong. UPS uses any tools they have available. And they are very good at this. They know very well what is going on at FedEx.
We only have one chance to set the bar and, "defend the profession". And like it or not, the group that signs first does set the bar. That was the chance.
It doesn't mean the IPA can't do "better". But it makes that effort infinitely more difficult. We are separate but linked.
Delta and SWA voted down their TA. Therefore, the bar has yet to be set.
Personally, I think most of us at UPS would have preferred to sign first and have the chance to put our money where our mouth is. But it will never happen. UPS will make sure of that.
I feel that the IPA is extremely unified. With the minimization of independent contractors. They are there, but do not define our pilot group.
Going forward, it is what it is. The bar has been set and the chance has passed.
11-05-2015, 10:55 PM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 2,889
SWA and Delta choose to wait for more money. 57% of our pilot group decided taking the gains now might be more valuable than protracted negotiations. I don't think the yes voters--which include me--where jumping up and down about the TA. It was simply a matter of would the next one offset the delay and would be preserve some (yet to be fully integrated and appreciated) work rule changes. While nobody can predict EXACTLY the right choice, the results of the next TA will be an interesting comparison to what FDX pilots approved. I would rather be rich than right, so if those guys secure huge gains good on them--they raised the bar for all of us. In 5.8 years we'll have a new target and a different strategy. If they get what I think they will...the same deal +/- 10 percent 2 years from now...then its a wash but with a lot more turmoil and disruption to work and family life. If they fail to secure 10% more...then they might have even lost ground.
What I see in IPA is a chance to improve your own lot...eliminate NURPs, stop flying on your own jets, and get some work rule improvements to match what we have. We already lifted the bar....and along the way have put millions of dollars into the hands of other ALPA and union pilots at American, United, and FedEx by NOT riding on our own jets to work. We fought to keep our training department filled with our pilots, improving our training fidelity and also creating more positions within the company for future ALPA pilots instead of professional instructors. We have put dues dollars to work for over a decade on initiatives that don't just help us, but our entire industry....with safety initiatives, KCM, open skies and host of others. Our pilot group has a lot to be proud about, and right now has IMHO the best contract in the industry. I'll accept a post-mortem on ways to improve from the guys in the trenches, but pot shots from the other side of Mason Dixon line fall a bit flat when 10% of your flying is out-sourced internally and you are riding around on your own jumpseats to work. I could give two ****s less about 5-10 bucks more an hour if I hate my job, and hate going to work. Right now, as a captain living an FDA, I see a lot of very nice improvements for my family in this new contract. Judging by the number of calls and emails we have been getting from pilots from SWA, Jetblue, Atlas, and even Delta and American who are trying to come to FedEx I am pretty sure we aren't holding anyone down too much.
If IPA is so much more effective, then I challenge you to "force their hand". Show us weak-dicks at FDX what unity looks like, and shame us with your new deal. Reclaim your flying, start flying first class DHs, and get 10% or so above our pay rates. But whatever go get, or don't get...take full responsibility for it and quit passing it off on us. We haven't just been helping cargo pilots, but the entire industry....and maybe I am a bit sensitive but I am rather proud of those contributions.
What I see in IPA is a chance to improve your own lot...eliminate NURPs, stop flying on your own jets, and get some work rule improvements to match what we have. We already lifted the bar....and along the way have put millions of dollars into the hands of other ALPA and union pilots at American, United, and FedEx by NOT riding on our own jets to work. We fought to keep our training department filled with our pilots, improving our training fidelity and also creating more positions within the company for future ALPA pilots instead of professional instructors. We have put dues dollars to work for over a decade on initiatives that don't just help us, but our entire industry....with safety initiatives, KCM, open skies and host of others. Our pilot group has a lot to be proud about, and right now has IMHO the best contract in the industry. I'll accept a post-mortem on ways to improve from the guys in the trenches, but pot shots from the other side of Mason Dixon line fall a bit flat when 10% of your flying is out-sourced internally and you are riding around on your own jumpseats to work. I could give two ****s less about 5-10 bucks more an hour if I hate my job, and hate going to work. Right now, as a captain living an FDA, I see a lot of very nice improvements for my family in this new contract. Judging by the number of calls and emails we have been getting from pilots from SWA, Jetblue, Atlas, and even Delta and American who are trying to come to FedEx I am pretty sure we aren't holding anyone down too much.
If IPA is so much more effective, then I challenge you to "force their hand". Show us weak-dicks at FDX what unity looks like, and shame us with your new deal. Reclaim your flying, start flying first class DHs, and get 10% or so above our pay rates. But whatever go get, or don't get...take full responsibility for it and quit passing it off on us. We haven't just been helping cargo pilots, but the entire industry....and maybe I am a bit sensitive but I am rather proud of those contributions.
11-06-2015, 12:48 AM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: MD11 CPT
Posts: 1,077
Originally Posted by dckozak
Sideshow, your dripping sarcasm is without equal, and I'm sure, on a layover, at a nice bar, it would be great to get into a serious discourse with you..
Fedex/ALPA pilots have now twice ratified contracts before and within the time frame that UPS/IPA pilots could have delivered a (better??) contract before we (Fedex pilots) set the bar..........
You didn't
So while the details of what your union will present to you, the pilots of UPS can only be surmised. I predict, based on past events, that with a high probability, two things will happen
1. Your negotiated pay rates will be slightly higher than ours
2. Your leadership will blame Fedex/ALPA for having set the bar too low, and your (unions) hands were tied by our (Fedex) crappy deal.
With the superior leadership and unity at UPS/IPA, how is it that twice over the course of two contracts, we, the weaker pilot group and union, have been put into the position of "setting the bar" for cargo pilots ?? This has been a grand failure of both our pilots groups and no doubt, left lots of money and benefits on the table, to the benefit of our respective employers. Ask your leadership how that happened, than go out and get that contract that will make us eat humble pie. I won't hold my breath waiting.
Fedex/ALPA pilots have now twice ratified contracts before and within the time frame that UPS/IPA pilots could have delivered a (better??) contract before we (Fedex pilots) set the bar..........
You didn't
So while the details of what your union will present to you, the pilots of UPS can only be surmised. I predict, based on past events, that with a high probability, two things will happen
1. Your negotiated pay rates will be slightly higher than ours
2. Your leadership will blame Fedex/ALPA for having set the bar too low, and your (unions) hands were tied by our (Fedex) crappy deal.
With the superior leadership and unity at UPS/IPA, how is it that twice over the course of two contracts, we, the weaker pilot group and union, have been put into the position of "setting the bar" for cargo pilots ?? This has been a grand failure of both our pilots groups and no doubt, left lots of money and benefits on the table, to the benefit of our respective employers. Ask your leadership how that happened, than go out and get that contract that will make us eat humble pie. I won't hold my breath waiting.
Let's face it...unless you use bogus pro-administration inflation data, you took an effective pay cut as your stock price/executive compensation skyrocketed. Your scope clause is a train wreck, right as the only guy who really wanted as much of your volume on purple tails is headed for the door.
You were terrified of another red letter, and given the spinal deficit over there, it was clearly for the best. Fred would have destroyed you guys, so all things considered, you did as best you could.
Sarcasm aside, we shall see.
11-06-2015, 08:29 AM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: 777
Posts: 866
Originally Posted by Sideshow Bob
We shall see.
Let's face it...unless you use bogus pro-administration inflation data, you took an effective pay cut as your stock price/executive compensation skyrocketed. Your scope clause is a train wreck, right as the only guy who really wanted as much of your volume on purple tails is headed for the door.
You were terrified of another red letter, and given the spinal deficit over there, it was clearly for the best. Fred would have destroyed you guys, so all things considered, you did as best you could.
Sarcasm aside, we shall see.
Let's face it...unless you use bogus pro-administration inflation data, you took an effective pay cut as your stock price/executive compensation skyrocketed. Your scope clause is a train wreck, right as the only guy who really wanted as much of your volume on purple tails is headed for the door.
You were terrified of another red letter, and given the spinal deficit over there, it was clearly for the best. Fred would have destroyed you guys, so all things considered, you did as best you could.
Sarcasm aside, we shall see.
11-06-2015, 09:47 AM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Posts: 2,756
It is very difficult to compare contracts from different airlines, there are just too many variables. People tend to look purely at rates, raises and bonuses, because that is the easiest thing to understand.
I wouldn't have admitted this during negotiations, but I feel like I have a pretty good deal going right now, even before any additional raises. I voted against our TA purely because I was uncomfortable with the loose language, and concerned about the possibility for interpretation that would not benefit us.
The reality is, I make about 300K/yr now, and work an average of nine days a month (including deadheads). I'll be making 375K/yr by the end of this contract. I rarely jumpseat, and generally fly first class everywhere, with well over a million Delta miles. FedEx pays for my tickets to vacations to Europe and Hawaii, in conjunction with trips. I'm whining if I have to fly more than two legs a night, in fact, I'm whining if I have to fly at night, though I'm not senior in my seat. I don't get any crap for my decisions, and mostly I feel respected, though if some minor issue comes up, you'll find me here on this forum going ballistic.
I don't feel that our signing let anyone down, and I hope that UPS pilots get the contract that they want, and the issues that they need worked out. But it is far more than pay, and it is very difficult to compare. All we can do is support each other, and not put other pilot groups down for their decisions.
I wouldn't have admitted this during negotiations, but I feel like I have a pretty good deal going right now, even before any additional raises. I voted against our TA purely because I was uncomfortable with the loose language, and concerned about the possibility for interpretation that would not benefit us.
The reality is, I make about 300K/yr now, and work an average of nine days a month (including deadheads). I'll be making 375K/yr by the end of this contract. I rarely jumpseat, and generally fly first class everywhere, with well over a million Delta miles. FedEx pays for my tickets to vacations to Europe and Hawaii, in conjunction with trips. I'm whining if I have to fly more than two legs a night, in fact, I'm whining if I have to fly at night, though I'm not senior in my seat. I don't get any crap for my decisions, and mostly I feel respected, though if some minor issue comes up, you'll find me here on this forum going ballistic.
I don't feel that our signing let anyone down, and I hope that UPS pilots get the contract that they want, and the issues that they need worked out. But it is far more than pay, and it is very difficult to compare. All we can do is support each other, and not put other pilot groups down for their decisions.
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