gringo

I'll just skip to the spoiler alert.

Night freight will destroy you. Crossing multiple time zones on a repeating basis will destroy you.

You're young. Now. Tomorrow less so. Even less the next day.

The human body did not spend the last 100,000+ years evolving into a daytime machine with nighttime circadian rhythms for it to successfully transition into an effective long term nighttime machine.

And it only gets harder as you grow older. Stuff breaks. Stuff slows down. You don't rebound as quickly as you once did.

If memory serves I remember reading the statistic that an overwhelming amount of pilots kick the bucket within just two to three years of retirement from nighttime freight.

Nighttime hub turns are hard on the body. Long haul east-west is equally hard on the body. Perhaps even more so. You've got 25 years of this left, give or take.

Family ties are a hard thing to break. I totally understand that. But this ain't your daddy's UPS.

Sincerely,

A reformed Freight Dog (who still has trouble sleeping)

Swedish Blender

Everyone says fly international and get away from the hub turns. Sometimes, hub turns are easier. Fly a 2 hour leg, sit 5 hours with a sleep room, fly 2 hours. Not everything is that clean, I get it.

The international is tough a lot of times due to 24 hour layovers. Everyone says great, 24 hours someplace. The hard part is you've been up 16 hours, flew 10 hours and want to go to bed. Remember, you have to manage 2 sleep cycles in that 24 hour period. Do 3-4 in a row and you're a zombie.

Ray Kinsella

You'll be north of $200K third year. If you like SDF it's an easy call.

ZapBrannigan

I texted him after he went back. I couldn't believe it because he had always talked about dreaming of UPS and things had gotten pretty bad at WM (which is why so many had left that year).

He texted back that he prayed about it and God told him to go back. He said the commute was too hard and he didn't like flying at night. I expressed that he wasn't even off IOE! He didn't even fly a single month as a line pilot so how could he know if he liked it or not. At least give it 6 months. Didn't he KNOW that UPS flew at night before he applied for the job?!

Instead, he turned tail and went back to being a big fish in a little pond. (The WM flight department raised the pay substantially to stop attrition and help recruitment. They didn't do that out of the goodness of their hearts... There was a reason.) We never spoke again.

He took UPS for gosh knows how much money. He took a slot from someone who might have really wanted it. And he probably soured UPS on any future pilot from that corporation who ever wants to work there again! All after not even giving it a fair shot?!?

That's hard to respect. I might have understood if he threw in the towel after six months. But on IOE?!?!

I'm sure he is happy now. He is right where he should be. And WM management gets to use him as a poster boy to say "see? Grass isn't greener on the other side!"

Waldorf

If you are here looking for advice, you are in the wrong place.

whalesurfer

Wow, this feels like a déjà vu all over again. In '04 a very good friend of mine left a corporate Gulfstream job at a stable corporate outfit where he flew and also did some management duties, I think he was an assistant chief pilot or maybe even a chief pilot? Can't remember but I know he made just a little more than what you're making now and remember that this was 10+ years ago. So he lived a good life.
Everyone was shocked because this guy was all about corporate flying, he seemed to love it and had never done anything else but corporate...
He said that the first couple of years were tough because of the initial pay cut and also because, just like you, he was used to great food on the road, long international layovers, fancy hotels.
His wife was the one who kept telling him to go to ups (believe her dad had retired as a ups mechanic?) ..and I guess she prevailed.

Once he figured out our bidding system he started getting used to it and eventually ended up bidding reserve a whole lot because at the time he had two small kids and since he lived within 1+ hours of SDF he bid reserve and ended up being home a lot.
Anyways, 2 1/2 years later his previous company shut down the flight department, didn't shrink it but simply shut it down. He said he never thought it'd happen.
I'll send him an email to see if he could give you his current perspective via PM maybe? (don't think he's on apc?)

Personally I like it here and most people I fly with do too. There's a lot of venom here and on our internal forums BUT I think people who're ****ed off (usually rightfully so) tend to express it more often than people who're content. ..again, I'm not discounting the complaints here, I've done my share of complaining here, I'm just saying that the average ups pilot doesn't even know what apc is? Most just do their jobs and put it behind them on their days off so you never hear about them here... So don't make up your mind based on comments you found on a message board, be it "good" ones or "bad" ones.

We despise the way management deceives us, the fact the company lies to us whenever they can and because the contract takes forever. ..BUT I fly with great people, have a nice paycheck and health insurance and when I'm home they leave me alone. Except for the occasional JA call (where I always write down what was available and then tell them I'm unavailable, just so the union knows what's going on).
Other than that I forget the company BS on my days off.
You have a tough decision to make but at least you have a choice.
Whatever you decide - please NEVER EVER accept a management position. Whether you accept the line pilot position or not - never look back. Wish you the best!

CloudSailor

I hear this repeatedly, and have to say it is a HUGE oversimplification. For one, aging is part of life. Guys join an airline when they're 40 and expect to look and feel the same way 25 years later. Ain't gonna happen.

The lifestyle you lead while at home, AND while on the road, has more to do with your health than what you are flying. I am not saying that night hub turning or ultra long-haul flying isn't tough on the body, but, there's a lot more to the story. I have flown with guys, and gals, in their mid-late 50's who do Iron Man competitions. They are very few and far between, but they are far healthier than the average 9-5 person who sleeps a solid 8 hours at night. Yes, it is tougher to have the discipline to lead that type of lifestyle as a cargo dawg vs. the 9-5 office person. But, it is the choices we make that determine our health and fitness. I include myself in this as I know I had 2 beers too many last night (flying with a good guy and great breweries nearby) - while mostly flying daytime this week - and I know the toll it takes on my body to do that repeatedly, and then to rely on catering for 'nourishment'.

Bottom line, there are both long-haul guys and gals, as well as night hub turners, who are far healthier and fitter than average people who can sleep at home every night. It takes discipline to not demolish your chocolate cake every day/night, and only hydrate with coffee and beer, and to get out of your room and stay fit. It all has to do with the decisions you make on how to live your life while on the road, and on your time off at home. Not preaching - as I know I could be much fitter than I am now... but then again, I like enjoying the finer beers in life.

CactusCrew

Is that in management ?

OR by working on DAYS OFF ?

I'm in 9th year and my W-2 plus MPP contributions from UPS is still under $200. So to make more than that in year 3 is going to require substantial working on DAYS OFF.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but its misleading to insinuate that it is the norm.

McBoeingBus

A few more considerations... Where do you live and will you commute, which will add to your cost of switching jobs. Looking at straight pay, you won't break 165 until the 9th year at UPS. It will take half of you career to make up the 120K pay cut. FedEx and Delta will retire 1/2 of their seniority list before UPS. However, they appear to be the only ones from the major carriers. Assuming no changes at UPS and the airline maintains the current size, you should be able to upgrade around the 12-14 year mark. The late 07 hires got a raw deal, especially the last few classes of 07. There is no guarantee that whoever gets hired in 16 won't be in the same boat. I have a friend at UPS who believes that there will be some new hire classes shortly. Those bodies would be fodder for the contract push from the company. Consider your stability at your corporate job and what prospects you or your spouse may have in the event that job went away. From my observations of my friends at UPS there are 4 types. The original guys from when the airline started, they are mostly gone and have seen a lot and are a little more pessimistic. The mid-90s guys are probably the happiest, they upgraded quicker and have been CA for a long time and have had the IPA. The tweeners are 2000-05 guys the older group flirted with CA, but have seen hiring and the ones that got on after hiring started again following 9/11 progressed fairly quickly. The most bitter are furloughed 07 guys who left jobs expecting stability and career progression. Think about these demographics when you get input. Good luck and just let your wife make your decision for you. She'll be there after retirement and it will be cheaper in the long run to keep her.

Shaman

I made the same decision to come to FDX from a corporate operation that I was very happy at making slightly more annually. People who are making a financial case for staying don't really know what they are saying.

In my case my health insurance costs were cut by 2/3 for my family of 5. so From nearly a grand to around 200 that's nearly 10k plus more/yr. And the FDX plan is far superior.

Retirement benefits 8% b fund and an A fund vs a 401k only with a 50% match up to 8% of my salary. Thats an additional 25k/yr in comp.

Life Insurance more than $1 million dollars in coverage vs $500/ year for half the coverage.

Schedule control there isn't any comparison. Your days off will be your days off period.

Finally and most importantly flying airplanes is core business for UPS/FDX/Delta et al. Corporations use aircraft as business tools and to some C-suite folks its integral but to others its a expensive luxury. To all its a cost center.

I absolutely loved the CEO of the firm I flew for and I was close to his family too. They took very good care of us, but at the end of the day the financial case was overwhelming and my decision had to be about me and my family.

As an aside an additional benefit of flying for UPS will be having the other priorities in your left being equally balanced with your work life. Nearly every guy I work with has a side gig or really expensive hobbies that they are free to pursue