1Seat 1Engine

A couple of points:

It wouldn't take much of a search to find tapes of guys who employed A/G with a shaky talk on in a danger-close troops in contact situation, and were right on target, resulting in saved lives and dead bad guys. In the big scheme of things, it's combat and we can't be 100% all the time. If your standard is 100% then in the above situation, friendlies die and bad guys prevail. You're going to have some losses in a big operation.

Second, the USAF has mis-managed the FAC/JTAC career field in ludicrous way. We no longer have credible A-FAC capability. The world is truly upside down in that we've invested tons of time/money/effort to create F-16 AFACs and very few A-10 pilots are AFAC. ****? Afghanistan and Iraq are begging for a dedicated AFAC platform like an A-10 or OV-10. That would go a long way to improving CAS in the USAF in general.

USAF pilots have done a legendary job of avoiding the ALO career field. How many airline guys quit the USAF to avoid an ALO tour? Consequently the JTAC career field has been led by the only officers the USAF could pin down at the time. It's ALWAYS been considered a BAD deal to be an ALO and the people we send to that career field reflect that.

I could easily get on a rant on this subject but I'll leave it at that.

Albief15

Dude--those SAME type guys you mentioned were my bosses in combat during Desert Storm. There were some sharp ones, but there were a LOT like you describe.

The problem is we make ALOs political prisoners to the Army to prove we will support them. A cadre of professional Air FACS should be developed without worrying about them "paying dues" as a ground FAC. The jobs are similar, but the be a GOOD airborne FAC takes a long time to master.

TTOFAC for those that remember...(hint: it was AV penned on my OV-10 canopy...)

Jetjok

If, years ago, the Air Force had transferred the A-10 to the Army, as the Army had asked, the FAC and ALO roles could be played by guys who cut their teeth in the Army, know Army Aviation, know Army nomenclature, terms, acronyms, etc, etc. As well, I believe, that our (ARMY) grunts would feel better knowing that the guys flying cover and CAS for them are of their service. That's not to say that they don't appreciate, in a very big way, the work of their Air Force buds, because they do. Very much. But, it would allow them to have a better feeling for the support that they would be getting. As well, it would streamline the request process, from the grunt under attack, up through the chain of command, and then down to the fighter wing, to get those fast attack, close air support assets on site and weapons on targets in a more expeditious manner. But the Air Force has never signed off on the Army operating fixed wing aircraft, never mind fast attack, fixed wing, jets. Just another example of parochial thinking. This is one case where the Marines have it all over the AF. (Don't beat me up too badly on this one .)

Slice

The Army should have lobbied more to the DoD. This isn't the fault of the AF. Get your own jets!

Jetjok

They did. The Air Force just wouldn't budge. And, oh, by the way, I flew the A-10 for over 20 years with the USAF/ANG, so I wasn't crying over spilt milk, I was just offering another view of the CAS environment.

FDXLAG

Back to the topic, the only criminal in this incident is the scumb&g who gave the tape to the press. I doubt the Air Force directly lied about the existence of the tape but if they did good on them.

Lag

1Seat 1Engine

I totally agree. They're not ALL incompetent, BUT there's more deadweight in that community than elsewhere. The young enlisted JTAC's need dynamic leadership, not hacked-off pilots biding their time until they can get back to the cockpit.

Just so you know, I'm one of the guys who did everything I could to avoid an ALO tour so that I could stay operational and fly DACT everyday.

1Seat 1Engine

Giving the Army the A-10 would have been the only thing that could make this situation worse.

1Seat 1Engine

The USAF will NEVER sign off on giving fixed wing attack to the Army. Next subject.

And I would totally agree that the Marines have combined arms and close air support figured out way better than the USAF/Army. Note that the Marine corps forces pilots to be ALO's on a much greater scale than the USAF does.

Ironically, I believe the JTAC in the A-10 incident was a Marine.

1Seat 1Engine

I may be wrong on this, but I don't believe HUD/voice tapes are protected or privledged anymore unless they are classified. Since there's nothing classified on these tapes, I think it's actually illegal for the military to withhold them.

At least that's what I heard on the last safety board I was on.