The A-10 Video
#1
Gets Weekends Off
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Joined APC: Jun 2006
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The A-10 Video
I'm going to post this, just because it was so intense to watch, like listening to the CVR of a plane crash. My sympathies to both of these guys.
There are times in aviation when you make a decision in 10 seconds that the rest of the world will second-guess for 10 years.
I'm interested in any opinions of the former attack guys or FAC's here. Albie?
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,11021-10043,00.html
There are times in aviation when you make a decision in 10 seconds that the rest of the world will second-guess for 10 years.
I'm interested in any opinions of the former attack guys or FAC's here. Albie?
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,11021-10043,00.html
#2
Bay day all around. It must really suck even if they did everything right, they were still wrong. I hope these guys don't get hung out to dry. I also hope they can deal with it and live normal lives. I can't imagine how they must feel.
#3
I feel terrible for these guys, as well as for the guys on the ground. Mistakes happen in combat, and it sucks to see the hue and cry from the media types who don't understand that. When a reporter makes a mistake, he gets a quote wrong or misspells a word, when a soldier or airman makes a mistake, people sometimes die. Subsequently, the level of professionalism and training in the military is oftentimes much higher than what you might find in other professions. Sometimes it's still not enough to overcome the fog and friction of combat. Now that the "cat is out of the bag" so to speak, I hope these pilots get a fair shake and the respect they deserve. Of course, I know that I'm more than likely preaching to the choir with the guys on this board. I'll say a prayer or two for all involved.
#4
It's amazing to me that we even have to discuss this. A whole bunch of people were doing their best to do their best and it didn't work out. That's defined as the "fog of war". It's what warriors experience every time they strap on an airplane, a submarine, a tank or a ruck sack. There still isn't a perfect war machine that might prevent this.
My deepest sympathies go out to the family of the fallen British warrior. But just like Cindy Shehan's son, Casey, (who, unless I miss my guess, is rolling over in his grave) that young man would not want his family to persue all of this. I can tell you for sure that I would NOT have wanted my parents to make an issue of a blue on blue accident. Most of us that have experienced direct combat understand how this works.
My deepest sympathies go out to the family of the fallen British warrior. But just like Cindy Shehan's son, Casey, (who, unless I miss my guess, is rolling over in his grave) that young man would not want his family to persue all of this. I can tell you for sure that I would NOT have wanted my parents to make an issue of a blue on blue accident. Most of us that have experienced direct combat understand how this works.
#5
My prayers go out to them ...
It could have happened to any one of us. You take all your training, experience and judgement and do the very best that you can. It's all a country can ask of you. Sadly ... mistakes happen, hopefully newer technology will make these incidents fewer and fewer.
#6
This was my nightmare for 2 years as an OV-10 guy and ground FAC. FRAT just sucks... Its effects amplify well beyond the mere loss of lives and firepower due to the loss of trust between forces and the resulting backlash and over-control of the command authorities to try to prevent repeat occurances. A-10s killed some brits and some marines in the first Gulf War, a former FAC killed 26 guys shooting down blackhawks over Northern Iraq in 1994, and several planes were downed by "blue" SAMs in various recent conflicts. A squadron commander was relieved just before the Desert Storm ground campaign for fratting some friendlies with an Apache attack.
When it happens--it stings. Then it rips at your gut. Then it makes you very mad. But its part of war. Our job is to our best to minimize it...
FWIW...at a recent little girls basketball game I ran into my old Weapon's officer's wife who was cheering on her kids while I cheered mine on. She reported to me that she had just received flowers from a young F-15 B course (beginning basic course) for "fratting" her husband on a training mission. In our F15 squadrons at Tyndall, the "standard" cost of a frat is a keg of beer to the squadron (which I remember from EVERY squadron). What we add that I think is so valuable is the student must send flowers to the "widow" he created, and also call her and apologize for "killing" her husband. Typically, we get one or two frats per class. When it happens, it costs the student over $100 in various fines, but the act of stopping, making those calls, ordering those flowers etc really DRIVES home the impact of a mistake and hopefully instills that "be sure before you shoot" philosophy. We train hard to try to create that proper mindset.
And as a random yet related sidenote, a hunter shot and killed his brother here in NW Florida a month or two back. Seems he "thought" his brother was still in a treestand and shot the movement he "thought" was a deer. When he found his brother shot but still alive he did all he could, but his brother died in his arms. My dad taught me to KNOW what I was shooting when he taught me to hunt, and I tried to have the same discipline in the F-15. However--there are times and places that despite your best efforts and intent mistakes will happen. When they do, we have to step back, learn, and try to be careful not to crucify an honest mistake. Techonolgy helps, but it is not a replacement for SA, discipline, and the judgement to know when to let a target pass because killing it is less important than not killing a friendly.
When it happens--it stings. Then it rips at your gut. Then it makes you very mad. But its part of war. Our job is to our best to minimize it...
FWIW...at a recent little girls basketball game I ran into my old Weapon's officer's wife who was cheering on her kids while I cheered mine on. She reported to me that she had just received flowers from a young F-15 B course (beginning basic course) for "fratting" her husband on a training mission. In our F15 squadrons at Tyndall, the "standard" cost of a frat is a keg of beer to the squadron (which I remember from EVERY squadron). What we add that I think is so valuable is the student must send flowers to the "widow" he created, and also call her and apologize for "killing" her husband. Typically, we get one or two frats per class. When it happens, it costs the student over $100 in various fines, but the act of stopping, making those calls, ordering those flowers etc really DRIVES home the impact of a mistake and hopefully instills that "be sure before you shoot" philosophy. We train hard to try to create that proper mindset.
And as a random yet related sidenote, a hunter shot and killed his brother here in NW Florida a month or two back. Seems he "thought" his brother was still in a treestand and shot the movement he "thought" was a deer. When he found his brother shot but still alive he did all he could, but his brother died in his arms. My dad taught me to KNOW what I was shooting when he taught me to hunt, and I tried to have the same discipline in the F-15. However--there are times and places that despite your best efforts and intent mistakes will happen. When they do, we have to step back, learn, and try to be careful not to crucify an honest mistake. Techonolgy helps, but it is not a replacement for SA, discipline, and the judgement to know when to let a target pass because killing it is less important than not killing a friendly.
#7
I'd say that's probably the most important thing for any warfighter to learn. And perhaps the hardest to teach. Not being a "trigger-puller" myself, I've had lots of conversations with my bro (who is) and the guys I've worked with. It's got to be a hard thing to do, to pull back when every bit of training you've ever had says "kill!"
#8
I don't know how much the world is going to second guess those guys. Apparently the military has already let them pass without a court martial. There is a realization that bad things can happen and it is quite clear that these two did all that they could to ensure safety before they opened fire.
What the world will second guess is the cover up. The government that denied existance of any such film and lied to the families about it. The sin was not in the shooting, the sin was in the lying and deception to the Hull family.
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