Omni TA
 

Well, anyone else convinced staying here any longer is a wasted career? Thx 1224 for offering to kick interview prep into gear.

I have a crazy idea.

Since we now have until the Spring before any more negotiations are planned, why doesn't the negotiating committee put together a TA with the companies best offer. We have plenty of time.

We can find out two things in the meantime. Either the Union actually does speak for members and the group will vote it down, or the Union has done a good enough job already and the members will vote it in.

Win, win.

Frank Paden

Here’s a better idea; update your resume and work to better yourself and your career because your employer is out of touch with the industry and the current climate. The 1970’s mindset of arrogance and “my way or the highway” needs to wither away and die already. It is not relevant anymore and shouldn’t be placated by “sticking around”...

That is a terrible idea.

Is there no place online that Omni pilots can go have intelligent conversations with other Omni pilots about things that actually affect our lives without hearing from pilots that have no skin in the game?

I, for one, am tired of hearing how we should do things from pilots that either hate Omni or have been fired from Omni for some reason or other.

If you can't identify as an Omni pilot. Please keep your comments to yourself.

Thanks!
Frank Paden

Thats not the way it works Frank... in the end the 1224 Eboard.. and the ExCo Chairman of all the 1224 Carriers will vote your contract in or out.....so... think about that for awhile.

I just find it interesting that while the CEO is around for the negotiation sessions, things seem to go pretty well. But the last two meetings he has left early, leaving the Senior DO at the helm. Thats when things fall apart at a high rate of speed. Does our Senior DO want a contract? Why would the CEO not stick around and finish out the meetings.

Frank – Although there are some intelligent people on this forum, don’t expect a direct answer to your quite valid question. I suspect others are lining up to flame on you with the usual non-answer answer to your post.

I’ll save the time and trouble. They will consist of a general theme revolving around “That’s not the way it works”, “Be quiet and let the process work” or something like that.

So here is my question; do you believe the organization we pay money to for legal representation, has an ethical obligation to seek our opinion and allow us to see some details of the recent offer? (whatever it is, or is not).

Not after they have determined we are worthy of digesting it, but now?

Maybe what has been offered sucks. If that’s the case than what is the downside of sending out whatever details are available?

As an airline pilot flying in the U.S., I have skin in the game. We are all tied together whether you like it or not. Overtime you fight to for lower pay and work rules you are an advocate for lower pay and work rules across the industry.

We all know you and Dubious are dying to take any deal you can get, no matter how bad it is. If you are so bent out of shape about the direction your fellow pilots are taking in negotiations, I challenge you two to run for a leadership position within your union to change the direction you are headed in. With that said, I would bet that you two are the vocal minority that are simply outnumbered by those with higher standards, self-worth and common sense. However, I could be wrong. This is certainly a vote I would like to see.

The sad part is Frank if you talk to a negotiator they basically finally said fine let's go with the outline you negotiated directly with the pilot group and we'll revisit the issues such as a 16 day sch. etc, and we'll make the contract for two years just to stem the tide of people leaving. That's when they took that supposed offer off the table and said no we're not gonna do pay, per diem etc. So even we we agree to what they want they change the play book. I have no idea what game they are playing but I know I'm sick and tired of doing everyone's job for them and intend to play by the playbook we have and see how well things get done when me and others no longer do everyone one else's job. I hope you'll join us.

Spock, you actually sound like you work at Omni so I will respond to you.

How can you say you are concerned about the direction of the company because you want to "stem the tide of people leaving" yet you are willing to ruin the company by doing a "slow down"?

You can't have it both ways. Either you care about the company or you don't.

Like I have said before. The company is laughing all the way to the bank. Our Union is bickering over stuff that the company will never change and the company is saving 1.5 million dollars a month.

The membership is paying for that, not the Union and certainly not pilots from other airlines.

Frank Paden

Herc Driver,
You are only partially correct.
If our representation no longer reflects the will of the pilot group, we can recall them.

If the new group get stymied by the 1224 E board, then we just vote them off property.

ALPA is always an option and doesn't pull this bent nose Hoffa b.s.

Look, it does no good to even discuss this on here.

We can settle this by putting out the companies best proposal as a TA. Then Omni and the Union will know where everyone stands and we can proceed.

If the proposal is so terrible, then it will be voted down.

I am very biased. I think Omni is the best supplemental airline out there. I have been here for 18 years and I think that together we have built a great airline. We have the best pilots in the industry. That is why other airline pilots are so envious of Omni and want to see it fail. You know who you are...

This is simple stuff. Put out something for us to vote on. We have discussed enough.

Frank Paden

There are those, when being robbed, who wish to take the best offer from the robber, or to capitulate entirely.

I can recall a captain that attempted to suggest to negotiators on both sides that he felt pilots were given too much per diem. He said he thought pilots didn't deserve better than McDonalds. The company loved him. The membership did not.

The notion of taking the best no-good offer the company hash made, and passing that out as acceptable for a vote, doesn't hold much water. That's life on a sinking ship, and deciding which hole below the waterline is acceptable.

A negotiation is just that, but it's not a surrender. It's not a solicitation to see what the company will give. It's a bargaining process, and there's a reason that unions exist to do this, bargaining collectively on behalf.

When the company makes an offer that's unacceptable and the union gives it to the membership anyway, it carries a ratification by the union and a tacit approval that lends credibility to the unacceptable. The notion that membership won't vote it in if it's bad is naive and disregards the credence given by the union when putting it out for a vote. Don't put out for a vote what isn't acceptable. People vote for presidents and politicians frequently with whom they're not satisfied, because it's the least of many evils on the ballot.

Don't put evils on the ballot. If something is unacceptable, don't knuckle under with the thinking that it's the best you can get. It's not so. The company walks away from the negotiating table precisely because they hope to hear voices like Frank's, telling people to vote for the crumbs the company has tossed. Don't pander to the other side. It's weakness, and it won't get you the contract you want.

Been there, done that.

[QUOTE=fraannk;2456510]Spock, you actually sound like you work at Omni so I will respond to you.

How can you say you are concerned about the direction of the company because you want to "stem the tide of people leaving" yet you are willing to ruin the company by doing a "slow down"?
Don't put words in my mouth Frank I never said slow down I said I'm sick and tired of doing other people's jobs for them so once they realize that we do most of the work when we stop doing everyone else's work they'll begin to realize that they are totally under paying us and that they should put their money where their mouth is if they really want to save the company.
And like I said once we agreed to basically accept what they were offering us they withdrew their offer so you explain to me how you can be so two-faced as to offer the pilot group something and then when the negotiation team finally realizes nothing's going to happen they offer them

You can't have it both ways. Either you care about the company or you don't.

Like I have said before. The company is laughing all the way to the bank. Our Union is bickering over stuff that the company will never change and the company is saving 1.5 million dollars a month.

The membership is paying for that, not the Union and certainly not pilots from other airlines.

Frank Paden[/QUOTE

Don't put words in my mouth Frank I never said slow down I said I'm sick and tired of doing other people's jobs for them so once they realize that we do most of the work when we stop doing everyone else's work they'll begin to realize that they are totally under paying us and that they should put their money where their mouth is if they really want to save the company.
And like I said once we agreed to basically accept what they were offering us they withdrew their offer so you explain to me how you can be so two-faced as to offer the pilot group something and then when the negotiation team finally realizes nothing's going to happen they offer them a temporary solution and they walk away from the table because they can't get their way. And while they're laughing all the way to the bank they're destroying their own company explain that to me Frank. They're turning down jobs their flying Captain's as first officers they're running around like chickens with their heads cut off.
Are you seriously going to sit here and tell me that you don't think that we've been completely under paid for all the years that we've worked here? come on man isn't it time for them to step up to the plate?

Frank how can you put out something to vote on?
They had (NC) finally agree to put something on paper but only make it somewhat temporary so that it can be renegotiated in the future and the company not only withdraws the offer but refuses to even meet the offer that they were going to give us in the first place

Johnny,

In a word....

Bullshyt.

The hard core union guys always whip out their go to line, "if you don't like it, volunteer" the problem with that is, that ain't how it works.

We all pay dues, we physically pay each month for the right to tell our representative how we feel on an issue.
If we get a positive response, we continue to support them; if not we cast our vote for someone we believe will represent our individual wishes.

If you notice, Frank didn't give anyone lectures or even tell people how to vote.

If you're right that he and just "a few guys" share his belief, then there is no way a TA would pass, strengthening the hand of our negotiators.

If you're wrong and it passed, then clearly the will of the majority of the pilot group would be represented.

Your accusation that Frank is advocating for "lower standards in the industry" is outlandish.

If it is true that we are losing thousands of dollars ea month to fight for 16 days off when the avg Omni pilot works 12 or 13 days a month (on avg) then clearly, we are sacrificing for others not ourselves.
I'm sure you're warming up your keyboard to tell me how selfish that is.

Well, it's no more selfish then pilots from other carriers that expect us to fight for something that will help them (at the cost of tens of thousands of dollars) which will have minimal impact on us.

Finally, your assumption that Frank "probably" doesn't represent more than a couple of pilots is dead wrong.

I've talked to at least 20 guys and 100% of them agree that the gains obtained thus far (thanks NC, you efforts are applauded)
are good enough IF the language is solid.

I talked to one of the NC guys about a year ago and asked him what were the most pressing issues that the pilots wanted and 16 days wasn't even on the list!

That's not to say nobody wanted it, just that the survey didn't make it a priority.

If you think it's great to fight indefinitely (and you are a current Omni pilot) for what is in your opinion, "industry standard" then i say awesome! And, commend your fortitude.

If you're not, well......

Well, you guys can continue to argue if you think it helps. I know that it is past changing the minds of anyone.

I have said my piece. I am out.

Frank Paden

With Franks attitude, the group will continue to be the lowest paid and most overworked group in the industry.

That’s exactly what this management wants, for everyone to give in and continue to work for peanuts.

Because, it is a weak offer that does not deserve to be passed. And it won’t. It is time for our profession to be raised to a standard it deserves and companies that promote anything less need to change their mentalities. Only by making a stand like this you initiate such change

Frank and the others in Frank's camp, there is no last offer from the company to even vote on.

Now is the time for Omni to pay market rates for a pilot or else it is time for Omni to shut down. What is so wrong about free market capitalism? The market commands an industry standard compensation package to be paid to you and all you have to do is support your union leaders you elected to speak on the behalf of the group.

The end of this process is near, your side will come out as the winners. The ego and arrogance of management is no match for the laws discovered by Adam Smith. The father of economics will win every time.

Which side do you want to be remembered as being on once this all concludes? Now is not the time to get scared.

If the rumors of the contents of the previous offer are true then I agree with Frank. To those who feel they are (or may) end up working for less than they're worth I would encourage them to move on to greener pastures. Not all of us are able to do that so we want to make the best of what we have. In any case a battle can be won in 2017/18. Our position can be consolidated and we can make the final push in 4 years. I don't see a reason to go all or nothing and drag this on to 2020 and end up with the same average compensation anyway.

Agreed. Think of what you have to gain by what you are losing everyday.
And the longer you let this go on the more you are losing in the long run. If the contract isn't up to standards then people ARE going to leave for greener pastures. Management needs to wake up to that fact.

We are not your pawns Atlas man... as a part of the same local you should be more concerned with Omni pilots finding a contract that works for them rather than one which furthers Atlas' negotiating position.

Johnny Knoxville,

One simple question;

Are you a current Omni pilot?

Yes or No?

For all those saying we need a vote, please fill me in on what exactly it is we would be voting on? I was under the impression that the company removed its proposal even AFTER our Negotiators conceded to the current status quo of 18 days + 4. We AGREED and the company packed up and walked out taking their entire package offer with them. I can only ascertain by this that the company has no intention of getting anything out to us for a vote anyway. We're much cheaper now than with a new CBA, even a POS one.

GF,
Once again, not telling anyone how they should vote or what they should do but,

to say that we agreed to the existing 18 days Plus 4 potential days is not really accurate.

the Union sought to do that for only one year and then 17 in year 2 or 16 days in year 3.... OR.... Duty Rigs.

I wasn't at the table so i can't say if the company is"pulling back" but it would seem to me, given that they have an entire website dedicated to what they have already agreed too, it would create a mutiny if they tried to go backwards.

The counter offer was a 2 year deal with no changes to current scheduling practices. That would of allowed the company to keep the status quo and allow us to readdress the issue at a later time. Seems to me like a no brainer, yet the company still walked. They had no intention of ever signing a deal.

Yes, you're correct in what you're saying now, but at the tiME, I was responding to your original point.

As far as the 2 year contract thing goes, I'd love That!

But, being given fair to both sides, most businesses don't do strategic planning 24 months at a time.

It is understandable that they would want greater stability.
Most of us are aware that other companies who award flying would prefer to do business with a company with a stable labor situation.

I disagree that they don't want to sign a contract.

They simply want to get it as cheap as possible.

That's their job.

Our job is to obtain the best compensation possible with bankrupting our employer.

There is no need for emotion... this is just about numbers.

Many will be quite interested in the recent email from the president I think... if what has been spelled out on the website and the email is true (and the language is as close to bulletproof as can be made) I, for one, would like this to go to vote by the membership. Granted that probably doesn't mean much to the people with the real power in the union.

If you can find/retain enough qualified employees at a given payrate, then that is the market rate based on pure supply and demand.

It’s obvious that the company learned Negotiating tactics straight out of the Donald Trump book. It’s so obvious, pathetic, and laughable, that they think anyone should take them serious.

The Art of The Deal 4 steps

1. Act like you don’t care
2. Be willing to walk away
3. Walk away at every chance
4. Act like you don’t care again

Fellow OAE pilots,

If you haven't read the "recent history" section of Crippen's email, i humbly suggest you do.

We get it, you don't like Omni... now please follow your own (err... trumpsters) advice and act like you don't care, be willing to walk away, walk away, and stop caring. I thought you left OAI anyway.

Some game changing stuff in that... apparently the company is not following the trumpster's advice. Let's hope this gets done in the near term. With the correct language in the contract I don't see how a resulting TA wouldn't pass.

Dangle a rotten carrot in front of a starving horse long enough, it's going to eat it. Farming 101. The company knows it's pilots are a bunch of starving animals.

The language will determine how fresh the carrot is. The Negotiation guys are asking the questions about each of those carrots before the company feeds them to you.

Disclaimer: All I care about is days OFF and business class travel.

Looks to be partial truths on all sides
 

If the negotiations have plugged most of the TA loopholes that management can use to our disadvantage i think that it is probably time to put this to a vote.

Let's put where we started this year and where we have ended up in perspective. I believe that time (pilot shortage and attrition) along with hard negotiations have worked to our advantage and managements disadvantage. That being said i wonder if we have reached a point of diminishing returns.

Let's also keep in mind that the economy has been on a 7 year bull market. Yes we may be able to eke out further concessions but what if the economy takes a dump early next year? How would that effect our bargaining power if all the airlines quit hiring.

Y'all sittin' down for this?
I agree with Heavydriver!!

I applaud his approach.

He came right out and addressed where his priorities are..

If the TA meets and individuals priorities, then they vote yes, if not? Then vote NO.

A TA is not the end of the world, even if you're in the "hold out for more" camp.
If the TA sucks, then during the Roadshow phase people will have the opportunity to debate the merits.

If it as bad as some believe, then that should be an easy debate to win and the TA will fail.
This would give the NC enormous power at the table, during the next negotiation.

But, if the majority feels that it is good, it'll pass.

We have some really, REALLY smart pilots flying the line. Having 193 sets of eyes going through this with a fine tooth comb is a good thing.

I also agree that Spaminacan has some valid points.
Look into what happened during the SW & Airtran merger... you can go backwards in a negotiation.

Tragically, none of this is even the argument.

The contract is being held up by 1224 who is using Omni pilots as sacrificial lambs to obtain improvements for the upcoming Atlas contract.
The fact that management is saying this, doesn't make it not true; I just got off the phone with a P2P who told me he has confirmed that this is EXACTLY true.

This E Board final authority stuff is unique to the IBT.

But there is good news! We CAN go around them.

Contact Captain Wainscott via company email and let him know where you stand (For or against).
If the majority of pilots are for a TA based on the current offer, then it is the duty of our Representatives to execute those wishes.

But, if they will not, and this is going to sound harsh, we vote them out through recall and
replace them with people that will.

To some this will seem extreme, to others, unappreciative of the efforts of the NC.

It is neither. These comments are without emotion or agenda. It is simply the tools we have to work with while employed at a company represented by unionized labor.

I have it on EXCELLENT authority that the IBT above 1224's head (a guy named David Bourne - Dir of Airline Division for The IBT) has given assurances that once Eric Wainscott-Omni ExCo- has given the OK, we will be allowed to vote.

Just out of curiosity I looked up the Atlas pay scale here in APC.

The "bread crumbs" pay that Omni has proposed is 50 dollars more per hour at the senior captain level than the 747 senior captain pay at Atlas and 83 dollars an hour more than comparable 767 senior captain rates.

The guarantee is also 2 hours higher.

The proposed rates are even higher than the hourly rates at Southwest. Of course, we don't fly nearly the hours that Southwest does so they are bound to make more.

What are people calling "bread crumbs"?

It is time to put Omni's proposal into a TA and let us vote. Money can't buy happiness but it sure does help with the bills.

Frank Paden

First of all, thats an old old old contract. One should not compare newer modern contract with an outdated one. Once they get a new TA, you can be assured it will be way better than our ‘crumbs’. And more importantly, I do not believe anyone is complaining about potential pay scale that is being offered (it is a decent pay scale). What is inadequate and missing is all the ‘soft pay’ and QOL perks that everyone else gets except us.