Come on, folks, we owe it to the victims, including the pilots, to let the investigation continue and wait for the official report.

Any speculation is completely out of line.

It could be any one of us in the seat next time--maybe even tomorrow. Would you want your family to put up with unfounded speculation?

We should know better than this.

 

Lear60Capt...your take on this tragady is pretty much my take also..and when discovering that the TR's were found stowed...make me wonder why the TR were found in the stowed position...I will be looking foward to the NTSB report which will probably be months and months away..I am a Lear 35 driver and apreciate them reversers especially when the tiger bites your ass on a high speed short runway abort...speculation is not out of line if it will prevent another crash and loss of life...and my deepest condolences to the families on this tragady....knowledge provides wisdom which hopefull leads to safety...

 

This post is specifically directed at a trend I see taking place on this thread. I will not speculate on the accident itself. I'm sure that "but for the grace of GOD, there go I" when it comes to accidents.

The trend on this thread has been to discuss the Lears inability to stop due to it's inadequate brake and tire equipment.

Focusing on the airplanes inability to stop has diverted everyones focus from the real issue - the DECISION to abort due to a wheel/tire/brake problem. As I said, I offer NO comment on the CAE accident, I just feel it necessary to strongly remind every pilot of the risk encountered during a high speed abort and of the small chance of a successful abort if said abort is due to any issue that would affect your ability to stop.

Bottom line, condition yourself to GO once you've reached the high speed range (usually accepted to by above 80kts). It is very unlikely that you will be able to stop after a high speed abort. Stopping after a high speed abort requires that the stars be correctly aligned. The brakes must be in good condition. The runway must be in good condition with good braking action. The procedure must be completed correctly. etc.

When I attended FSI for Lear initial (long ago) I was trained to GO once past 80kts for everything except engine failure/TR deployment/loss of directional control. Studies and statistics prove that high speed aborts end up in an accident almost 50% of the time - even when the pilot makes the correct decision and performs the procedure correctly. (Google for Boeing abort study, etc)

Be careful out there men!

 

You're right, that is what we are conditioned to do. And two things got my attention.

1. This was quoted from the NTSB~ The plane was traveling at least 92 mph, its minimum takeoff speed, when the crew thought the tire burst, Hersman said. ??? (Past 80 kts? Early recognition? Is this just a guess?)

2. When the tire(s) blew, maybe there was "loss of directional control"....

In any case, sad story indeed...RIP.

 

Even assuming eighty knots, NO brakes, no thrust reversers, and no spoilers; with over a mile of runway remaining, it seems like an aborted take-off should have simply rolled to a less catastrophic conclusion, especially considering the extra drag of the blown tire.

Any thoughts from Lear drivers? Thrust levers sticking (computer forcing them) open in situations like this? What is V1/Vr/V2 on the 60? What is the take-off roll? Perhaps the crew was following the training (over 80, go) some are touting on here; but, with the blown tire, were not able to get up enough speed to fly?

 

First, the blown tire would not have caused any extra drag. I've blown a lear tire and the can state from experience that the remaining tire will carry the load. I've not studied this particular accident in detail, but I seem to remember that the aircraft went straight off the runway end. Therefore they most likely had directional control which basically rules out the scenario where both tires blew. IOW, a single blown tire would have been a very minor issue if the takeoff had been continued. Again, I'm trying to NOT comment on this particular accident. As far as I know, we do not yet know why they attempted an abort. I am willing to give the crew the benefit of the doubt and conclude that their decision was good. That only emphasises the danger of high speed aborts. Many things could have caused the crew to make a proper abort decision. The blown tire could have somehow ended up fodding out the engine is one possibility that could have put this ill fated crew in an almost no win situation. RIP.


Second, a Lear, any Lear that I know of, will accelerate well with all four tires locked. That's why they train to NEVER set the parking brake when holding in position (line up and wait). It is possible to push up the power and blow the tires before you realize it.

 

I don't know all the details but I think the aircraft may have been very close to MGTOW with 6 souls (bags) and enough fuel (full) for a west bound trip from South Carolina to KVNY.
So even in a perfect world BFL margin (with the factor) would be very small for the LR60. (Even with the 3-rotor brake system)

Then blow MLG tire or just shed the tread (which has happened to me more than once) and this margin probably goes away.
The possibility also exists that the accelerated tire parts may have damaged the squat switch and depending on the aircraft mod status could have lead to the un-commanded stow of the TR's.

And then we have all the other factors:
Late night take off. (Fatigue)
Possibility of critter on the runway. (Strike critter - damage to other parts of landing gear and aircraft)


The LR60 was made to fly. What ever prompted the apparent attempt to abort is still unclear but we do know that the crews actions preserved the life of two people and for that I am sure they are thankful.

my hats off...

go easy

 

Travis barker and DJ am were released from the hospital...and not to my suprise, they took a bus home.

 

NTSB released an accident summary including new factual information.

Click Here for Oct 22/08 NTSB update.

 

I guess that just goes to show that you don't do RTOs after 80 knots or V1, whichever it is.