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Old 04-15-2012, 03:15 PM   #11  
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJ8DR...layer_embedded
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Old 04-16-2012, 08:56 AM   #12  
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Std Deviation: You don't think that is a problem associated with corporate/charter in general? The flying with the same guys and not annunciating things out of "professional courtesy"? It seems more of a general problem with 135/91 flying than just a "co-captain" problem. Any interesting point to bring up though between the difference of 121 and 135/91.
One of the biggest barriers is part 91 operations with no written SOPs. At least with an SOP pilot X has something to "fall back on" when pilot Y is 30 knots fast on approach. The better departments natural arrive at the realization that it's better to fly the book and that the book requires annunciation of a deviation along with corrective action.
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Old 04-16-2012, 12:53 PM   #13  
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At my current company, we switch seats (everybody is captain qualified), but the senior member of the crew is the final authority, regardless of which seat they occupy.
This is what we do and it has worked well for us for years now. Perhaps I am wrong here but I would like to think that most companies do it this way or?
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Old 04-16-2012, 03:00 PM   #14  
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One of the biggest barriers is part 91 operations with no written SOPs. At least with an SOP pilot X has something to "fall back on" when pilot Y is 30 knots fast on approach. The better departments natural arrive at the realization that it's better to fly the book and that the book requires annunciation of a deviation along with corrective action.
My company doesn't have a written ops manual; what we do have is two professional pilots that communicate very well with each other and aren't afraid to call out when the other isn't flying the way they are supposed to.

What is "supposed to", one might ask, without a written policy? Short answer is you KNOW what the 'right' way is, long answer is following profiles provided by the manufacturer and/or Part 142 training providers.

We don't have an SMS manual either, but that doesn't stop us from having a highly effective safety management system in the two guys up front...but I digress

My point being, if one of the folks in a crew seat is a d-bag or cowboy, having an ops manual won't do anything to change that negative attitude.
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Old 04-16-2012, 06:00 PM   #15  
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My company doesn't have a written ops manual; what we do have is two professional pilots that communicate very well with each other and aren't afraid to call out when the other isn't flying the way they are supposed to.

What is "supposed to", one might ask, without a written policy? Short answer is you KNOW what the 'right' way is, long answer is following profiles provided by the manufacturer and/or Part 142 training providers.

We don't have an SMS manual either, but that doesn't stop us from having a highly effective safety management system in the two guys up front...but I digress

My point being, if one of the folks in a crew seat is a d-bag or cowboy, having an ops manual won't do anything to change that negative attitude.
Ditto. My last operation didn't have any written SOP's when I came aboard. But since it was a two pilot operation, it wasn't very long before we had "unwritten familiarity" with each others styles and habits. Much of our communication when flying together was non-verbal.

SOP's are only as good as they are written. We have them at my current operation and I'd surmise that some of our guys (although very standardized, professional and safe) couldn't tell you a quarter of the detailed specifics in our ops manual.
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Old 04-16-2012, 10:04 PM   #16  
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That's some funny stuff!!
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Old 04-21-2012, 04:59 AM   #17  
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Without written SOPs what happens when the attorneys come around? One of the most expensive lawsuits in business aviation history centered around lack of SOPs. Unwritten non-verbal communication is not 100 perfect. Of course, neither is verbal, "takeoff power" "the weather is diminishing", etc. Most of the accidents out there centered around a miscommunication or a failed shared mental model.

Seriously, I would encourage at least some semblence of a manual - I addressed this topic in one of the aviation safety publications last year. If two guys are "already doing it" come to an agreement and document it. The concept of "unwritten familiarity with each others styles and habits" is contrary to current 6th generation CRM best practices. Compliance is another issue entirely. Behavior that's not measured will decay. Almost impossible in smaller departments but the premier part 91 departments check compliance.


One of the last cases I was involved with was an overrun in which the pilots told the NTSB, "we don't have any SOPs or written procedures." Case closed. Very convincing to a civil court jury - when you're getting personally sued for damages - that the science, NTSB, ISBAO,EASA, best practices require written SOPs.

Well-written, properly documented, constantly evolving, objective and measured SOPs, will benefit any operation. Even two pilots who feel they "know each other very well."

Last edited by Std Deviation; 04-21-2012 at 05:15 AM.
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Old 04-21-2012, 05:02 AM   #18  
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My point being, if one of the folks in a crew seat is a d-bag or cowboy, having an ops manual won't do anything to change that negative attitude.
Firing him will do wonders for that attitude...
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Old 04-21-2012, 05:03 AM   #19  
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Without written SOPs what happens when the attorneys come around? One of the most expensive lawsuits in business aviation history centered around lack of SOPs.
Which one would that be?

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One of the last cases I was involved with was an overrun in which the pilots told the NTSB, "we don't have any SOPs or written procedures." Case closed.
Was "we don't have any SOPs or written procedures" sited as the probable cause of the accident?
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Old 04-21-2012, 05:13 AM   #20  
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Which one would that be?



Was "we don't have any SOPs or written procedures" sited as the probable cause of the accident?
guessing he means this one:

Untitled Page

PROBABLE CAUSE: "Failure of the pilot-in-command (PIC) to maintain directional control of the airplane during the takeoff roll in a gusty crosswind, his failure to abort the takeoff, and failure of the copilot to adequately monitor and/or take sufficient remedial action to help avoid the occurrence. Factors relating to the accident included the gusty crosswind condition, the drainage ditch, the flight crew's inadequate preflight, the Nose Wheel Steering Control Select Switch in the "Handwheel Only" position, and the lack of standardization of the two companies' operations manuals and Interchage Agreement. "


SOPs are always a good idea, but they only go as far as the people using them. Yet another reason to staff you own aircraft with your own good people. That trumps any manual, anyday.
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