TSA numbers above 100k seven days in row
07-21-2020, 06:07 PM
#1561
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Joined APC: Oct 2019
Posts: 1,281
Originally Posted by furloughfuntime
But they conducted an arrest, not an investigation. The person they arrested was also found to have DONE NOTHING WRONG.
I would also wager that there is probably a whole lot more to this than the text of the federal code that none of us are thinking of. Things like legal precedent from former cases that can inform this situation.
A former judge and conservative commentator, Judge Andrew Napolitano, has said the events were unconstitutional. Do the armchair lawyers here really have a more nuanced understanding than him and other experts in the law who have denounced this action? Really?
I would also wager that there is probably a whole lot more to this than the text of the federal code that none of us are thinking of. Things like legal precedent from former cases that can inform this situation.
A former judge and conservative commentator, Judge Andrew Napolitano, has said the events were unconstitutional. Do the armchair lawyers here really have a more nuanced understanding than him and other experts in the law who have denounced this action? Really?
07-21-2020, 06:15 PM
#1562
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Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 762
Originally Posted by furloughfuntime
But they conducted an arrest, not an investigation. The person they arrested was also found to have DONE NOTHING WRONG and there was no probable cause.
I would also wager that there is probably a whole lot more to this than the text of the federal code that none of us are thinking of. Things like legal precedent from former cases that can inform this situation.
A former judge and conservative commentator, Judge Andrew Napolitano, has said the events were unconstitutional. Do the armchair lawyers here really have a more nuanced understanding than him and other experts in the law who have denounced this action? Really?
I would also wager that there is probably a whole lot more to this than the text of the federal code that none of us are thinking of. Things like legal precedent from former cases that can inform this situation.
A former judge and conservative commentator, Judge Andrew Napolitano, has said the events were unconstitutional. Do the armchair lawyers here really have a more nuanced understanding than him and other experts in the law who have denounced this action? Really?
I like Judge Nap, but what he says is not law. He said ObamaCare was unconstitutional, yet the Supreme Court upheld it. He had also said the Patriot Act is unconstitutional, yet here we are.
There is how we think the law should be and how it is. Unfortunately, the law gives DHS a wide latitude in how they enforce the law. These laws were passed with overwhelming bipartisan support as well.
07-21-2020, 06:21 PM
#1563
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Joined APC: Oct 2008
Posts: 553
No way is rolling up on some guy in an unmarked van and tossing them in right. That’s not an arrest, it’s kidnapping.
Trump got his peepee slapped after he tried to send in active duty troops against US citizens so Barr cooked up this BS. It’s not right.
I’m sure you guys saw the video of the the Navy vet getting a beating at the hands of these unidentifiable goons.
This is some serious authoritarian stuff
https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/5477552002
Trump got his peepee slapped after he tried to send in active duty troops against US citizens so Barr cooked up this BS. It’s not right.
I’m sure you guys saw the video of the the Navy vet getting a beating at the hands of these unidentifiable goons.
This is some serious authoritarian stuff
https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/5477552002
07-21-2020, 06:26 PM
#1564
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Joined APC: Mar 2020
Posts: 399
Also, in my state, local/state LE may handcuff (for Officer safety), frisk, and move someone from an unsafe location to a safe location to conduct questioning/investigation WITHOUT it being considered an arrest. A riot/violent protest would absolutely qualify. Certain standards of proof must be met in order to do so (I believe it was RS for us), and flight (running away) met that standard.
Just food for thought. I’m sure feds have even more extensive powers in that regard.
Just food for thought. I’m sure feds have even more extensive powers in that regard.
07-21-2020, 06:28 PM
#1565
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Joined APC: Apr 2020
Posts: 237
Originally Posted by NE_Pilot
Read the law again. It is quite clear. They can conduct investigations AND they can make arrests with or without a warrant.
I like Judge Nap, but what he says is not law. He said ObamaCare was unconstitutional, yet the Supreme Court upheld it. He had also said the Patriot Act is unconstitutional, yet here we are.
There is how we think the law should be and how it is. Unfortunately, the law gives DHS a wide latitude in how they enforce the law. These laws were passed with overwhelming bipartisan support as well.
I like Judge Nap, but what he says is not law. He said ObamaCare was unconstitutional, yet the Supreme Court upheld it. He had also said the Patriot Act is unconstitutional, yet here we are.
There is how we think the law should be and how it is. Unfortunately, the law gives DHS a wide latitude in how they enforce the law. These laws were passed with overwhelming bipartisan support as well.
"Detaining demonstrators away from federal properties has also raised questions. Former officials at the Department of Homeland Security said it would normally only dispatch agents to assist with local incidents if the state or municipal governments asked for help and deputized that responsibility. In Portland, local leaders have done the opposite.
But the lack of any consent from local officials just means federal agents cannot rely on state and local laws to justify the arrests. Federal agents can still detain the demonstrators away from federal property if they can assert probable cause that a federal crime was violated, according to Peter Vincent, a former top lawyer with Immigration and Customs Enforcement, which has also sent agents to cities across the United States.
“Homeland security’s authorities are so extraordinarily broad that they can find federal laws that they are authorized to enforce across the spectrum, so long as it has some national security, public safety, human trafficking, criminal street gang conspiracy,” Mr. Vincent said. But civil rights lawyers and demonstrators have questioned whether the department has used that authority to violate protesters’ right to free speech."
Nevertheless, I think there are constitutional issues here that need to be addressed by a court. Your last point is well-made, but I think we all should be suspicious of such broadly written laws and the potential for their abuse.
07-21-2020, 06:40 PM
#1566
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Joined APC: Oct 2008
Posts: 553
Obama tried to do the right thing for the nation by not going after the various bush administration people for over reaches (torture, WMD intelligence, domestic surveillance, etc.) he also could have blown the lid on the Trump campaigns numerous contacts with Russians. He didn’t because that’s what tin pot dictators do. He didn’t abuse his power for political gain even if it was warranted. But I think maybe he was wrong. Maybe if those people were held accountable we wouldn’t be in this situation today.
btw the White House had the lawyer that was the architect of justifying torture come by for a chat recently to see how they can go about abusing their office more effectively.
btw the White House had the lawyer that was the architect of justifying torture come by for a chat recently to see how they can go about abusing their office more effectively.
Last edited by contrails12; 07-21-2020 at 06:50 PM.
07-21-2020, 06:45 PM
#1567
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 762
Originally Posted by furloughfuntime
I think youre right, in that the law as it is written grants rather sweeping authority to DHS. However, they still need sufficient probable cause to make the arrest. There was no probable cause in this case, as far as I can tell. There also seems to be a tension between the Bill of Rights as they apply to citizens and the powers given to federal LE in the federal code. An excerpt from an NYT article sheds some light here:
"Detaining demonstrators away from federal properties has also raised questions. Former officials at the Department of Homeland Security said it would normally only dispatch agents to assist with local incidents if the state or municipal governments asked for help and deputized that responsibility. In Portland, local leaders have done the opposite.
But the lack of any consent from local officials just means federal agents cannot rely on state and local laws to justify the arrests. Federal agents can still detain the demonstrators away from federal property if they can assert probable cause that a federal crime was violated, according to Peter Vincent, a former top lawyer with Immigration and Customs Enforcement, which has also sent agents to cities across the United States.
“Homeland security’s authorities are so extraordinarily broad that they can find federal laws that they are authorized to enforce across the spectrum, so long as it has some national security, public safety, human trafficking, criminal street gang conspiracy,” Mr. Vincent said. But civil rights lawyers and demonstrators have questioned whether the department has used that authority to violate protesters’ right to free speech."
Nevertheless, I think there are constitutional issues here that need to be addressed by a court. Your last point is well-made, but I think we all should be suspicious of such broadly written laws and the potential for their abuse.
"Detaining demonstrators away from federal properties has also raised questions. Former officials at the Department of Homeland Security said it would normally only dispatch agents to assist with local incidents if the state or municipal governments asked for help and deputized that responsibility. In Portland, local leaders have done the opposite.
But the lack of any consent from local officials just means federal agents cannot rely on state and local laws to justify the arrests. Federal agents can still detain the demonstrators away from federal property if they can assert probable cause that a federal crime was violated, according to Peter Vincent, a former top lawyer with Immigration and Customs Enforcement, which has also sent agents to cities across the United States.
“Homeland security’s authorities are so extraordinarily broad that they can find federal laws that they are authorized to enforce across the spectrum, so long as it has some national security, public safety, human trafficking, criminal street gang conspiracy,” Mr. Vincent said. But civil rights lawyers and demonstrators have questioned whether the department has used that authority to violate protesters’ right to free speech."
Nevertheless, I think there are constitutional issues here that need to be addressed by a court. Your last point is well-made, but I think we all should be suspicious of such broadly written laws and the potential for their abuse.
The Bill of Rights hasn’t been deemed applicable since before you and I were born. Granted there is the token ruling here and there, but for the most part the SC has granted the Federal government extreme latitude, and both parties have taken advantage of that.
07-21-2020, 06:51 PM
#1568
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 762
Originally Posted by contrails12
Obama tried to do the right thing for the nation by not going after the various bush administration over reaches (torture, WMD intelligence, domestic surveillance, etc.) he also could have blown the lid on the Trump campaigns numerous contacts with Russians. He didn’t because that’s what tin pot dictators do. He didn’t abuse his power for political gain even if it was warranted. But I think maybe he was wrong. Maybe if those people were held accountable we wouldn’t be in this situation today.
btw the White House had the lawyer that was the architect of justifying torture come by for a chat recently to see how they can go about abusing their office more effectively.
btw the White House had the lawyer that was the architect of justifying torture come by for a chat recently to see how they can go about abusing their office more effectively.
Interesting, you must not be aware of Samir Kahn, Anwar Al-Awlaki, or his 16 year old son. All US citizens, all assassinated under Obama without due process.
07-21-2020, 06:53 PM
#1569
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Joined APC: Oct 2008
Posts: 553
Originally Posted by NE_Pilot
Interesting, you must not be aware of Samir Kahn, Anwar Al-Awlaki, or his 16 year old son. All US citizens, all assassinated under Obama without due process.
07-21-2020, 06:59 PM
#1570
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Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 762
Originally Posted by contrails12
that probably wasn’t right either. Like much of the war in terror. At least he tried to close down Guantanamo
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