France is now on its Fifth Republic, started in 1958. Germany is 150:years since unification and how many governments since then? UK has had a Republic and a civil war. So, there’s that.

 

And I wouldn’t call the Third Reich an unalloyed success either...

 

Democracy: rule of the people.
Oligarchy: rule of the few.
Aristocracy: rule of the excellent (or best).
Monarchy: rule of one.
Anarchy: without ruler.

The US is definitely not an anarchy, it is not a monarchy, nor is it an aristocracy.

I would argue that the United States, and most current “democracies”, are in fact oligarchies. Electing officials does not make a democracy, it is the rule of the people that makes a democracy. When you hand over that rule to a representative, as is the case when you elect legislators, you are in fact moving from “rule of the people” to “rule of the few”.

Before someone mentions that we “democratically” elect our representatives, this is not true either. Representatives are elected by the few, those in their districts or states. The senators of NY and FL are not elected by the people at large, even though their laws affect the people at large. There are, in fact, more legislators where you have no say in their election than there are where you do have a say.

One issue most have with this idea is that many associate democracy as inherently good and oligarchy as inherently bad, but simply put that is nonsense. An oligarchy can be equally good or bad as a democracy.

 

The ugliness is coming. I warned.

Here are the facts:

Nowhere in the Declaration of Independence or Constitution is the word democracy written. We are a representative republic. We are not a democracy. Federalist paper 10 lays out the reasoning. Even if you think we are a democracy, really believe it down deep in your soul, it isn't true.

My last word on this because it will get ugly if it keeps going.

 

What ugliness?

 

Just don't see a good outcome for this discussion. I am aware of the point you are making but some things are better left alone. We don't have a democracy. He/she doesn't have to be persuaded.

 

Of course not. But the constitution of the Federal Republic of Germany (since 1949) has been a success by most accounts.

Of course there has been a lot of turmoil, war and political change in Europe in the past. And my own country was the main aggressor in WW1 and WW2 . Terrible. But it would be wrong to somehow blame this on the current European constitutions, when they were not in place at the time.

 

I think it is important to understand that democracies come in various shapes. If that were not true then why would there be a Democracy Index published by "The Economist Intelligence Unit". https://www.eiu.com/topic/democracy-index

I don't necessarily want to discuss the specifics of that report but it clearly shows that there are very democratic democracies and not so democratic democracies, plus hybrid systems and totalitarian regimes. Sure, that's just one way to look at it but it makes sense.

How often have I heard american politicians speaking about bringing democracy to the world in the context of past armed conflict? Why would the US want to bring democracy to other countries if it's allegedly not a democracy itself?

How a nation describes its own political system is not always a reliable indicator of the true form of government. The German Democratic Republic (East Germany) was about as democratic as China is today. And the US are a democracy and a Republic, even though the word democracy does not appear in the constitution. It's not just me who "believes" this:I often hear people argue that the United States is a republic, not a democracy. But that’s a false dichotomy. A common definition of “republic” is, to quote the American Heritage Dictionary, “A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them” — we are that. A common definition of “democracy” is, “Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives” — we are that, too.
The United States is not a direct democracy, in the sense of a country in which laws (and other government decisions) are made predominantly by majority vote. Some lawmaking is done this way, on the state and local levels, but it’s only a tiny fraction of all lawmaking. But we are a representative democracy, which is a form of democracy.

And indeed the American form of government has been called a “democracy” by leading American statesmen and legal commentators from the Framing on. It’s true that some Framing-era commentators made arguments that distinguished “democracy” and “republic”; see, for instance, The Federalist (No. 10), though even that first draws the distinction between “pure democracy” and a “republic,” only later just saying “democracy.” But even in that era, “representative democracy” was understood as a form of democracy, alongside “pure democracy”: John Adams used the term “representative democracy” in 1794; so did Noah Webster in 1785; so did St. George Tucker in his 1803 edition of Blackstone; so did Thomas Jefferson in 1815. Tucker’s Blackstone likewise uses “democracy” to describe a representative democracy, even when the qualifier “representative” is omitted.

Likewise, James Wilson, one of the main drafters of the Constitution and one of the first Supreme Court Justices, defended the Constitution in 1787 by speaking of the three forms of government being the “monarchical, aristocratical, and democratical,” and said that in a democracy the sovereign power is “inherent in the people, and is either exercised by themselves or by their representatives.” And Chief Justice John Marshall — who helped lead the fight in the 1788 Virginia Convention for ratifying the U.S. Constitution — likewise defended the Constitution in that convention by describing it as implementing “democracy” (as opposed to “despotism”), and without the need to even add the qualifier “representative.”

To be sure, in addition to being a representative democracy, the United States is also a constitutional democracy, in which courts restrain in some measure the democratic will. And the United States is therefore also a constitutional republic. Indeed, the United States might be labeled a constitutional federal representative democracy. But where one word is used, with all the oversimplification that this necessary entails, “democracy” and “republic” both work. Indeed, since direct democracy — again, a government in which all or most laws are made by direct popular vote — would be impractical given the number and complexity of laws that pretty much any state or national government is expected to enact, it’s unsurprising that the qualifier “representative” would often be omitted. Practically speaking, representative democracy is the only democracy that’s around at any state or national level. Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...r-a-democracy/

 

You are welcome.

 

Or have a look at this Speech of President Roosevelt form 1936:

https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/docu...ntial-campaign

Excerpt:"Americans have had to put up with a good many things in the course of our history. But the only rule we have ever put up with is the rule of the majority. That is the only rule we ever will put up with. Spelled with a small "d" we are all democrats.

In some places in the world the tides are running against democracy. But our faith has not been unsettled. We believe in democracy because of our traditions. But we believe in it even more because of our experience."

Or consider this answer to the question we are discussing here:

We often hear a question debated in person and online by Americans who care deeply about making sure our government works for the people: is the United States a democracy or a republic?

Here’s the answer: The United States is both a democracy and a republic.

We promise we’re not dodging the question. It would be much easier if one word was absolutely correct and the other was not, but the terms are not mutually exclusive. The United States can be accurately defined as both a democracy and a republic.

Let’s break down why. https://act.represent.us/sign/democracy-republic/