The anti-vaxxers...
01-08-2021, 11:22 AM
#401
Perennial Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 11,687
People who haven’t participated in a
Mass vaccination program tend to underestimate both the logistics and training involved as well as the acceptance among the skeptics. It will be a learning experience for many:
It’s going to be a long slog. Most mass immunization programs are.
The desperately awaited vaccination drive against the coronavirus in the U.S. is running into resistance from an unlikely quarter: Surprising numbers of health care workers who have seen firsthand the death and misery inflicted by COVID-19 are refusing shots.
It is happening in nursing homes and, to a lesser degree, in hospitals, with employees expressing what experts say are unfounded fears of side effects from vaccines that were developed at record speed. More than three weeks into the campaign, some places are seeing as much as 80% of the staff holding back.
“I don’t think anyone wants to be a guinea pig,” said Dr. Stephen Noble, a 42-year-old cardiothoracic surgeon in Portland, Oregon, who is postponing getting vaccinated. “At the end of the day, as a man of science, I just want to see what the data show. And give me the full data.”“It’s far too low. It’s alarmingly low,” said Neil Pruitt, CEO of PruittHealth, which runs about 100 long-term care homes in the South, where fewer than 3 in 10 workers offered the vaccine so far have accepted it.
Many medical facilities from Florida to Washington state have boasted of near-universal acceptance of the shots, and workers have proudly plastered pictures of themselves on social media receiving the vaccine. Elsewhere, though, the drive has stumbled.
While the federal government has released no data on how many people offered the vaccines have taken them, glimpses of resistance have emerged around the country.
In Illinois, a big divide has opened at state-run veterans homes between residents and staff. The discrepancy was worst at the veterans home in Manteno, where 90% of residents were vaccinated but only 18% of the staff members.
In rural Ashland, Alabama, about 90 of some 200 workers at Clay County Hospital have yet to agree to get vaccinated, even with the place so overrun with COVID-19 patients that oxygen is running low and beds have been added to the intensive care unit, divided by plastic sheeting.
The pushback comes amid the most lethal phase in the outbreak yet, with the death toll at more than 350,000, and it could hinder the government’s effort to vaccinate somewhere between 70% and 85% of the U.S. population to achieve “herd immunity.”
It is happening in nursing homes and, to a lesser degree, in hospitals, with employees expressing what experts say are unfounded fears of side effects from vaccines that were developed at record speed. More than three weeks into the campaign, some places are seeing as much as 80% of the staff holding back.
“I don’t think anyone wants to be a guinea pig,” said Dr. Stephen Noble, a 42-year-old cardiothoracic surgeon in Portland, Oregon, who is postponing getting vaccinated. “At the end of the day, as a man of science, I just want to see what the data show. And give me the full data.”“It’s far too low. It’s alarmingly low,” said Neil Pruitt, CEO of PruittHealth, which runs about 100 long-term care homes in the South, where fewer than 3 in 10 workers offered the vaccine so far have accepted it.
Many medical facilities from Florida to Washington state have boasted of near-universal acceptance of the shots, and workers have proudly plastered pictures of themselves on social media receiving the vaccine. Elsewhere, though, the drive has stumbled.
While the federal government has released no data on how many people offered the vaccines have taken them, glimpses of resistance have emerged around the country.
In Illinois, a big divide has opened at state-run veterans homes between residents and staff. The discrepancy was worst at the veterans home in Manteno, where 90% of residents were vaccinated but only 18% of the staff members.
In rural Ashland, Alabama, about 90 of some 200 workers at Clay County Hospital have yet to agree to get vaccinated, even with the place so overrun with COVID-19 patients that oxygen is running low and beds have been added to the intensive care unit, divided by plastic sheeting.
The pushback comes amid the most lethal phase in the outbreak yet, with the death toll at more than 350,000, and it could hinder the government’s effort to vaccinate somewhere between 70% and 85% of the U.S. population to achieve “herd immunity.”
01-08-2021, 12:09 PM
#402
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2017
Posts: 25
Check out this study...
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32668444/
You are correct, there is no data on long term immunity to covid-19 from either the virus, or the vaccines. But that doesn't mean we have nothing to make a decision on. While there are cases of vaccines providing better protection than actual exposure to the real deal, covid's closest cousin SARS has been demonstrated to ellicit an immune response 17 years after exposure (as of study publication). The data we have (6 months worth) doesn't show any signs that covid is different. They also demonstrated that T cells from a previous SARS exposure responded to a covid19 exposure, meaning that some of us were likely immune back in March.
This tells me that while its perfectly reasonable to say "theres no data so I should get a vaccine just in case" its equally rational to say "theres no data, but its reasonable to think I don't need one if I've already had covid".
It also challenges the idea that 100% of the population is susceptible since about 30% of us have had exposure to one of covids cousins, meaning we could be much closer to herd immunity than previously thought.
All that to say, I'm glad we have a vaccine. Its incredible how fast they got a good product to market. And at the same time, I don't have to buy every good product on the market. Chat with your doctor and make your own decision.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32668444/
You are correct, there is no data on long term immunity to covid-19 from either the virus, or the vaccines. But that doesn't mean we have nothing to make a decision on. While there are cases of vaccines providing better protection than actual exposure to the real deal, covid's closest cousin SARS has been demonstrated to ellicit an immune response 17 years after exposure (as of study publication). The data we have (6 months worth) doesn't show any signs that covid is different. They also demonstrated that T cells from a previous SARS exposure responded to a covid19 exposure, meaning that some of us were likely immune back in March.
This tells me that while its perfectly reasonable to say "theres no data so I should get a vaccine just in case" its equally rational to say "theres no data, but its reasonable to think I don't need one if I've already had covid".
It also challenges the idea that 100% of the population is susceptible since about 30% of us have had exposure to one of covids cousins, meaning we could be much closer to herd immunity than previously thought.
All that to say, I'm glad we have a vaccine. Its incredible how fast they got a good product to market. And at the same time, I don't have to buy every good product on the market. Chat with your doctor and make your own decision.
01-08-2021, 12:14 PM
#403
Gets Weekdays Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: Economy Minus
Posts: 1,053
Originally Posted by Excargodog
It’s going to be a long slog. Most mass immunization programs are.
In fact, is it telling that many of the frontline people, the experts on the dangers of this virus, who see this every day in the hospitals and care facilities fear the disease so little that they see the vaccine as a larger risk?
01-08-2021, 12:34 PM
#404
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,951
Originally Posted by skywatch
And most immunization programs are not built on a vaccine developed at "warp speed" (and the bare minimum of validation needed to get approved). And most are not then directed to a population that includes a large % of people likely not in any real statistical risk from the "disease".
In fact, is it telling that many of the frontline people, the experts on the dangers of this virus, who see this every day in the hospitals and care facilities fear the disease so little that they see the vaccine as a larger risk?
In fact, is it telling that many of the frontline people, the experts on the dangers of this virus, who see this every day in the hospitals and care facilities fear the disease so little that they see the vaccine as a larger risk?
For every one doctor there’s probably 4 nurses, and for every 4 nurses there’s probably another 4 support staff.
This is like asking a gate agent if the 737 max is safe. Some, I’m sure, have done a lot of research and can make a smart analysis, but just because they’re “in aviation” doesn’t intrinsically mean they’re an expert on another facet of their field.
That 18% at a group home could mean every single doctor and nurse and 0 CNA’s/chefs/etc.
01-08-2021, 02:24 PM
#405
Banned
Joined APC: Feb 2020
Position: Gummed
Posts: 1,060
Originally Posted by DarkSideMoon
What is the definition of “frontline worker” being used?
For every one doctor there’s probably 4 nurses, and for every 4 nurses there’s probably another 4 support staff.
This is like asking a gate agent if the 737 max is safe. Some, I’m sure, have done a lot of research and can make a smart analysis, but just because they’re “in aviation” doesn’t intrinsically mean they’re an expert on another facet of their field.
That 18% at a group home could mean every single doctor and nurse and 0 CNA’s/chefs/etc.
For every one doctor there’s probably 4 nurses, and for every 4 nurses there’s probably another 4 support staff.
This is like asking a gate agent if the 737 max is safe. Some, I’m sure, have done a lot of research and can make a smart analysis, but just because they’re “in aviation” doesn’t intrinsically mean they’re an expert on another facet of their field.
That 18% at a group home could mean every single doctor and nurse and 0 CNA’s/chefs/etc.
If you hold an ID badge to a hospital you are frontline medical
If you are an EMT/Paramedic your are frontline medical.
01-08-2021, 02:27 PM
#406
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,951
Originally Posted by Phins2right
I'll help you out:
If you hold an ID badge to a hospital you are frontline medical
If you are an EMT/Paramedic your are frontline medical.
If you hold an ID badge to a hospital you are frontline medical
If you are an EMT/Paramedic your are frontline medical.
01-08-2021, 02:28 PM
#407
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Posts: 2,478
Originally Posted by DarkSideMoon
Did you get that from the article (which is the only criteria that matters for this discussion) or are you just making things up?
01-08-2021, 07:38 PM
#408
Gets Everyday Off
Joined APC: Aug 2016
Position: Fully Retired
Posts: 7,000
Originally Posted by rickair7777
They're not wrong, covid is (likely) different.
Some bugs, MMR among them, tend to confer lifetime immunity.
Others don't, typically many of the numerous viruses that cause the cold, and also the flu.
Also chickenpox confers long-term immunity, but not for life... that's what the shingles vaccine is for, to prevent the chickenpox virus from flaring up later in life.
Now we don't know for sure how long covid-induced immunity lasts, at least 9-12 months and it's likely to be 1-2 years, but might be longer. Have to wait and see, but other coronaviruses tend to confer shorter immunity (12 months) and there's no reason to think this one will be much different.
Some bugs, MMR among them, tend to confer lifetime immunity.
Others don't, typically many of the numerous viruses that cause the cold, and also the flu.
Also chickenpox confers long-term immunity, but not for life... that's what the shingles vaccine is for, to prevent the chickenpox virus from flaring up later in life.
Now we don't know for sure how long covid-induced immunity lasts, at least 9-12 months and it's likely to be 1-2 years, but might be longer. Have to wait and see, but other coronaviruses tend to confer shorter immunity (12 months) and there's no reason to think this one will be much different.
01-09-2021, 07:21 AM
#409
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,478
Originally Posted by TransWorld
Can you share some facts or rationale to back up your statement that Covid-19 is less like MMR and more like the ever new flu and ever new common cold?
The "common cold" is actually any one of a couple hundred mild respiratory viruses, of various types. Some rhino, some RSV, some corona, plus some unknown. So again, they have some familiarity with how coronaviruses tend to behave.
I'm not making a definitive statement, just an informed SWAG. If you see a new airplane on the ramp and it resembles a 747 in size, shape, and configuration you might be inclined to reasonably assume that it cannot fly at M 3.0 because it looks nothing like an SR-71 or a Mig-31.
Also worth pointing out that simply having residual antibodies in your system is not a guarantee of immunity (although it might well reduce severity). There are other components to the immune response.
If I had already got the 'rona I'd feel comfortable waiting at least a year before getting vaccinated, that would save it for others who need it more, and also allow time to see how the data shakes out. But again, natural immunity is NOT as predictably consistent as vaccine-induced immunity with significant individual variations. That's why no government is likely to accept an "antibody" passport in lieu of vaccination.
01-09-2021, 08:45 AM
#410
Perennial Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 11,687
Originally Posted by TransWorld
Can you share some facts or rationale to back up your statement that Covid-19 is less like MMR and more like the ever new flu and ever new common cold?
https://jcm.asm.org/content/48/8/2940
There are also a number of coronaviruses of veterinary importance. Immunizations against those have historically provided fairly short-lived immunity.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
antiguogrumete
Your Photos and Videos
0
05-09-2017 12:42 PM
