gloopy

To save on hotels, per diem, pay, credit and block hours.

gloopy

By that logic, how many SWA pilots were furloughed when they ran the AirTran alter ego operation?

Our scope clause is already set up to prevent the company from doing something like that indefinitely and on their terms. So the DCI inference is irrelevant. What was allowed under DCI was unlimited in duration and (at the time) block hours and flights. Only seats per plane and a few minor other restrictions were in place.

What SWA implied/threatened to do, if AT didn't agree to their terms, was to modify their scope to allow the temporary (big difference...kind of like how AT allowed the temporary alter ego for Ryan to fly Busses to the west coast to seat dump JB out of the market) "alter ego" operation for the purpose of phasing it out as assets were transferred. That is not the same as DCI with DL. Not even close.

I'm not saying that would happen under this hypothetical, just that it could. DALPA could very well be pressured by national to roll over and get hammered with a full relative integration to serve as a recruitment tool for other non ALPA groups to join. Arbitrators (if it gets to that point) are madly in love wth relative integration, which for a legacy airline would mean a windfall in favor of a younger rapid growth LCC. We can further speculate about the value of the various pay rates for equipment and the expectations of wide body flying and all that, but it would be potentially disastrous for our pilot group to put all that in the hands of someone who works for a system that robotically leans towards relative.

That's why SW pilots and management worked together in that merger. DL, UA, AA or even SW. The last 3 are way more likely future JB dance partners than DL is at this point anyway, even assuming there's not a fragmentation.

But since you brought up DCI, there is at least one relevant parallel. The group with the most to gain will obviously push as hard as they can to take the runway, throttle up and reach V1, and then force a resolution once there's no way out because they know the worst case is limited (staple in theory, but probably full relative at the narrow body equivalent positions level) and the best case is an almost unimaginable windfall (full relative period, perhaps with some minor fences). All whilst touting the sanctity of "the process" despite the true motives.

IMO no pilot group will (or should) roll over and let that happen. DL, AA and UA (and NW and US) in particular have suffered more than enough stagnation, much of which happened during and because of JB's (and others) phenomenal growth phase. To then turn that over to the potential for full relative would be disastrous.

But again, I see a DL/JB tie up (at this point) as an extremely low possibility. AA, UA and SW are many times more likely, even if it happens, which it might not anyway. The seniority dynamics and concerns would still apply, but only UA is ALPA as of now and who knows what they would do. We know what AA and SW will do; protect their pilot groups from the risk of full relative integration by any available means.

RonRicco

How exactly is it saving on per diem? It doesn't matter if my 4 day starts out of BOS or lays over there, it is the same.. Unless we think it will all be turns with no overnights.

It may save on hotel cost in BOS, or maybe not. A 4 day trip will still have layovers somewhere. There is also a provision with VB as I recall to provid hotels to pilots there.

Credit is the main driver (along with reliability by having pilots on reserve in base) along with the elimination of the overhead associated with a full blown base.

When you look at all that is required (hotel, PS passes, reserves etc) to start a VB, there has to be a lot of credit reduced to justify it.

sailingfun

The problem is that it really does not do that. Certainly not on 3 or 4 pieces of equipment. Our domestic system is pretty low credit as it is. Hotels and Per Diem are down in the noise. Credit is basically all that is relevant.

CheapTrick

DAL won't be buying US airlines because we can't get it through the regulators. Strengthening DALs reach is now done through JV and equity buys. Boston is the next SEA with DAL increasing its focus there. No used 777s. Up gauging the domestic fleet by replacing the 88's with bigger acft like A321s. This is all from some writings in a GO men's bathroom. Take it to the bank.

Scoop

Why the angst over VBs? I thought DALPA could unilaterally pull it down?

I would be very,very leery of eliminating this unilateral pull down option in the future. For example we have VBs for a year and then the company wants to make it permanent.

Here are a few ways I would characterize that:

Danger! Danger Will Robinson!
Wouldn't be prudent.
DALPA declines to acquiesce to the companies request.
A union has got to know its limitations
What we would have there would be a failure to communicate - wisely.
I've got a bad feeling about this.
DALPA has chosen poorly.
And finally - What could possibly go wrong?



Basically I don't think the VB will be a big deal - unless we are stupid and agree to making it permanent without the unilateral pulldown feature.

Scoop

tunes

or from a LCA meeting.

CheapTrick

LCA would never graffiti up a loo, would they?

gloopy

Because any VB departure would have most likely been an overnight and/or DH into or back out from another base. The only purpose of a VB is to reduce credit and therefore block hours and therefore pilot jobs. That is why they pushed for it. We were able to limit it, and the pull down feature is a great (IMO we should exercise it ASAP) but they will dangle it over the commuters with promises of local trips as well as making it as painless as possible for the transition/trial period in the hopes we make it permanent and expend it to international.

Abouttime2fish

Just curious about those who think VB's are such a bad idea.....commuter or live in domicile?

I understand the DH argument, but say they opened RDU as a VB. Almost zero DH in and out of there that I've seen. And the convience to VB there would be wonderful. I'd still have 2.45 drive to work, but I live where I want...I could at least stand long call from home. And BOS, I wouldn't mind spending a month based out of there over the summer.

How do you put a dollar amount on a QOL issue? And one that will only affect some. And may keep changing. I don't know, but don't get angry at the few that get a good deal. You ready to give back all LCA buys? That only affects a few and we could sell it for an across the board raise.

No anger here, but if they open a VB I can use, I'm gonna bid it.