Delta vs Southwest
09-04-2017, 04:05 AM
#11
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Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: Up front
Posts: 962
Originally Posted by RckyMtHigh
Don't think this is an accurate statement anymore. I have done many two-leg cross country type days in two years at SWA. I've done all of one five-leg day. With the max coming online, there will be more of the same. Future growth at SWA is longer routes out to Hawaii and to Central/South America. I would expect SWA to look and feel a lot like the legacy carriers by 2020, minus the Europe and Pacific long haul stuff. Wouldn't count out another type aircraft either in my 20 year career. Not that any of that really matters because, like everyone else has said, your number one factor in choosing between the big 4 should be commuting vs non-commuting. You can't compare scheduling flexibility or pay without factoring that in. Your opportunities to take advantage of scheduling rules and make the most of the respective pay scales jump up dramatically when you live in base.
The industry's golden child will vary in the course of your career as contract and economic cycles happen. Being happy where you live and the benefits of non-commuting won't.
The industry's golden child will vary in the course of your career as contract and economic cycles happen. Being happy where you live and the benefits of non-commuting won't.
While looking at bid packages at DAL I know that the multiple short leg quick turns don't really exist on the 737. Red eye transcon would be realistic for a new 737 FO though.
09-04-2017, 05:33 AM
#13
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Joined APC: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,451
Originally Posted by Falcon20
That's awesome that SWA is building schedules like that. I inferred from friends that the few leg days went senior. Thus not realistic for a new hire.
While looking at bid packages at DAL I know that the multiple short leg quick turns don't really exist on the 737. Red eye transcon would be realistic for a new 737 FO though.
While looking at bid packages at DAL I know that the multiple short leg quick turns don't really exist on the 737. Red eye transcon would be realistic for a new 737 FO though.
The only thing that goes more senior than junior at SWA are long international overnights and one and two day trips. Even those can be had by the most junior pilot.
I like SWA, but then again I would like Delta if I were there too. For me it's all about liking my job and having more days off or making my days at work count. Yes, I like to travel, but the stuff that I live for is at home. SWA has a lot of schedule flexibility and if you are willing to put a little effort into it, you can turn a little seniority into a great schedule.
The crews are great too, at least the PM crews. I have had some really fun overnights by hanging out with the crews.
You won't fly wide body international, so if that is a factor, then don't come here.
The big burr in my saddle right now with SWA is our STD/LTD which is not great. I will let others go into it, but you are basically dead to the company when you run out of sick time.
09-04-2017, 05:42 AM
#14
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Joined APC: Dec 2012
Posts: 269
Originally Posted by Snaplock
Ok everyone, I'm the luckiest person in the world and have offers from both Delta and Southwest. Both are great companies but I'm not sure which one to choose so I'm looking for advice. Don't bother talking about bases please. I actually live in base for one of these already and don't want that to influence the discussion. (It will heavily influence my decision though.) Here are specific areas that I want to use to compare the two companies:
- Scheduling flexibility
- Pay
- Medical insurance
- Loss of license/Long and short term disability
- Job security
- Time to upgrade
- Other benefits
- Anything else you think is pertinent
Any advice or info is greatly appreciated!
- Scheduling flexibility
- Pay
- Medical insurance
- Loss of license/Long and short term disability
- Job security
- Time to upgrade
- Other benefits
- Anything else you think is pertinent
Any advice or info is greatly appreciated!
-SWA offers better schedule flexibility becasue every flight is on a 737 so you could theoretically always find the best flying without having to change fleets.
-Pay is similar across narrow body fleets, but significantly favorable at DAL for widebody.
-I assume SWA medical is better simply because DAL medical is pretty unimpresive.
-Short/long term is decent at DAL if you also consider Mutual Aid.
-Job security, I guess it's better at SWA since they have never furloughed. I have little fear of being furloughed at DAL, but it is certainly possible.
-Time to upgrade is a red herring as it is always a moving target. Currently it is 4 months at DAL and much, much longer at SWA.
Go to the one that has a base where you live and never look back.
09-04-2017, 07:32 AM
#15
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Joined APC: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,108
How long is the upgrade at SWA?
The 737 cockpit is tiny and loud. Add a jumpseater and it's almost intolerable.
Having the variety of fleets to choose from has made my career very enjoyable.
Above all else, living in base is everything. We work twice as much after bankruptcy. Add commuting to anywhere and your family/health will suffer.
The 737 cockpit is tiny and loud. Add a jumpseater and it's almost intolerable.
Having the variety of fleets to choose from has made my career very enjoyable.
Above all else, living in base is everything. We work twice as much after bankruptcy. Add commuting to anywhere and your family/health will suffer.
09-04-2017, 08:48 AM
#16
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Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: 757 Left
Posts: 1,306
I'll echo the above comment in that I've really enjoyed having the option to change airplanes and the flying and higher pay rates that come with that. Over a long career it's nice to shake it up every once in a while. For me though, comuting over a 30 year career would be so bad it would override any other consideration.
09-04-2017, 09:19 AM
#17
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Joined APC: Jul 2015
Position: MD-88 FO
Posts: 1,559
Commuting is not that bad. You guys are serious drama queens. Living where your wife will be happier is way better for your health than living in base. Especially if that base is ATL. I feel safer walking around NYC than I do walking around downtown ATL. That being said, Being able to book jumpseat a five days ahead of time (Delta) make commuting super easy.
09-04-2017, 09:26 AM
#18
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Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,522
[QUOTE=Snaplock;2424598]Ok everyone, I'm the luckiest person in the world and have offers from both Delta and Southwest. Both are great companies but I'm not sure which one to choose so I'm looking for advice. Don't bother talking about bases please. I actually live in base for one of these already and don't want that to influence the discussion. (It will heavily influence my decision though.) Here are specific areas that I want to use to compare the two companies:
- Scheduling flexibility
On a given fleet: SWA wins. Overall though, DL wins. But unless you really want the long haul lifestyle (almost 30 hour, 2 leg, 3 day trips, etc...among other gems) then it really doesn't matter, as you'll eventually reach similar QOL.
- Pay
DL wins. For now. SWA was the industry dominator for pay (at least for pax carriers) for basically a decade. But that's only because they didn't take huge cuts after everyone else did. Part of that was that they were run very well, and part was an extremely lucky fuel hedge bet during that time. Regardless, I'd say DL wins this one, but SWA will still offer a great 6 figure lifestyle, so unless you're concerned with flushing millions down the college drain or maintaining multiple exes, its really just a matter of bling.
- Medical insurance
SWA. Part of this may be the same circumstances as the pay, when everyone else took massive cuts and SWA didn't have to. There's a lot of inertia behind something like this, so I'd expect SWA to have the advantage for quite a while. DL's insurance is acceptable though. If you know going in you'll be needing it a lot, research the policies specifically first.
- Loss of license/Long and short term disability
Never compared the two specifically. I'm sure each will take care of you though.
- Job security
The same. For now. Yes, SWA has never furloughed. But we've hit "peak pilot" now, and retirements will be massive and permanent. Even another age increase won't do much to stop the outflow. Both companies are highly profitable with hiring projections into infinity. Yes I know, back in the day DL was hiring 100 a month forever then furloughed instantly, etc. But the logistics and actuarial were different. While SWA hasn't furloughed yet, have they ever really had to carry a thousand(s) of pilots surplus for the better part of a decade? The post 911 furlough didn't apply to them anyway because of their massive fuel hedge and the fact that legacies were culling capacity that SWA was growing into so there was no need for them to furlough. Emotionally SWA wins this one, but an honest look IMO would suggest a tie, at least as far as anyone can tell at this time.
- Time to upgrade
Right now DL wins this by a country mile. Not even close. As in 6 months compared to a decade or so. While the gap will certainly close, the fleet dynamic and retirement wave suggest DL will probably be ahead of, or at least not much behind, in this area. But before you consider this, ask yourself will it really mater to you? Obviously DL isn't doubling every 6 months, nor are they losing half their pilots every 6 months.
So the only real way quick upgrades like this are even possible are because of MASS quantities of bypass pilots, all who could hold those junior CA slots but all who refuse to and bypass. There is a reason for that, and odds are high that you will discover those reasons for yourself. Chasing upgrades often results in being on the back side of the QOL wave for quite some time, and often times for little extra money as well. Obviously first year upgrades break that differential for a while, but there is a plethora of EXTREMELY good reasons why half of the airline that can upgrade choses not to. So advantage DL for now, but it may not apply to you.
I assume by deduction that you live in a SWA base and would therefore have to commute to DL. Would you then really take the first available upgrade and remain junior for years, commuting to reserve? Probably not.
- Other benefits
DL offers better travel bennies. Then again, SWA bennies would be pretty good if you lived in base and were more likely to use them.
SWA uniform is way more comfortable, but big deal.
Fleet variety, which has been discussed. You may or may not take advantage of this anyway, but its really nice to have options.
- Anything else you think is pertinent
Again, I assume you live in an SWA base, but which one I don't know. Living in base is nicer for sure. But its far from the binary heaven/hell dichotomy many make it out to be. Not all commutes are alike, and some are actually really easy. Pair that with a 1 to 3 trip a month schedule and it becomes far less of an issue.
Normally people say go with the first one that hires you, but you've ruined that for us! 
Best of luck, and the important thing to remember is: either way you probably win. Both are great choices. I'd lean DL, but I'd sleep very well picking SWA.
- Scheduling flexibility
On a given fleet: SWA wins. Overall though, DL wins. But unless you really want the long haul lifestyle (almost 30 hour, 2 leg, 3 day trips, etc...among other gems) then it really doesn't matter, as you'll eventually reach similar QOL.
- Pay
DL wins. For now. SWA was the industry dominator for pay (at least for pax carriers) for basically a decade. But that's only because they didn't take huge cuts after everyone else did. Part of that was that they were run very well, and part was an extremely lucky fuel hedge bet during that time. Regardless, I'd say DL wins this one, but SWA will still offer a great 6 figure lifestyle, so unless you're concerned with flushing millions down the college drain or maintaining multiple exes, its really just a matter of bling.
- Medical insurance
SWA. Part of this may be the same circumstances as the pay, when everyone else took massive cuts and SWA didn't have to. There's a lot of inertia behind something like this, so I'd expect SWA to have the advantage for quite a while. DL's insurance is acceptable though. If you know going in you'll be needing it a lot, research the policies specifically first.
- Loss of license/Long and short term disability
Never compared the two specifically. I'm sure each will take care of you though.
- Job security
The same. For now. Yes, SWA has never furloughed. But we've hit "peak pilot" now, and retirements will be massive and permanent. Even another age increase won't do much to stop the outflow. Both companies are highly profitable with hiring projections into infinity. Yes I know, back in the day DL was hiring 100 a month forever then furloughed instantly, etc. But the logistics and actuarial were different. While SWA hasn't furloughed yet, have they ever really had to carry a thousand(s) of pilots surplus for the better part of a decade? The post 911 furlough didn't apply to them anyway because of their massive fuel hedge and the fact that legacies were culling capacity that SWA was growing into so there was no need for them to furlough. Emotionally SWA wins this one, but an honest look IMO would suggest a tie, at least as far as anyone can tell at this time.
- Time to upgrade
Right now DL wins this by a country mile. Not even close. As in 6 months compared to a decade or so. While the gap will certainly close, the fleet dynamic and retirement wave suggest DL will probably be ahead of, or at least not much behind, in this area. But before you consider this, ask yourself will it really mater to you? Obviously DL isn't doubling every 6 months, nor are they losing half their pilots every 6 months.
So the only real way quick upgrades like this are even possible are because of MASS quantities of bypass pilots, all who could hold those junior CA slots but all who refuse to and bypass. There is a reason for that, and odds are high that you will discover those reasons for yourself. Chasing upgrades often results in being on the back side of the QOL wave for quite some time, and often times for little extra money as well. Obviously first year upgrades break that differential for a while, but there is a plethora of EXTREMELY good reasons why half of the airline that can upgrade choses not to. So advantage DL for now, but it may not apply to you.
I assume by deduction that you live in a SWA base and would therefore have to commute to DL. Would you then really take the first available upgrade and remain junior for years, commuting to reserve? Probably not.
- Other benefits
DL offers better travel bennies. Then again, SWA bennies would be pretty good if you lived in base and were more likely to use them.
SWA uniform is way more comfortable, but big deal.
Fleet variety, which has been discussed. You may or may not take advantage of this anyway, but its really nice to have options.
- Anything else you think is pertinent
Again, I assume you live in an SWA base, but which one I don't know. Living in base is nicer for sure. But its far from the binary heaven/hell dichotomy many make it out to be. Not all commutes are alike, and some are actually really easy. Pair that with a 1 to 3 trip a month schedule and it becomes far less of an issue.
Any advice or info is greatly appreciated!
Best of luck, and the important thing to remember is: either way you probably win. Both are great choices. I'd lean DL, but I'd sleep very well picking SWA.
09-04-2017, 09:38 AM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Posts: 631
I agree with most the posters...go with the airline that affords you the opportunity to live in base.
After commuting for several years early in my career (when you are needed home the most with small kids) it takes a HUGE toll on your QOL and relationships. If you don't believe me...do the math.
Start the clock the minute you leave the driveway of your home and stop the clock the minute you start getting paid. Do that for both going to/from work, add up the time and project that over a career. I get the fact people LOVE living where the live, but if you have a choice between two airlines and one has a base where you live....no brainer, unless your family is willing to move to one of the other airlines base! Then the decision becomes MUCH more difficult and many other variables probably need to come into play.
Good luck and congrats on having a decision like this!
After commuting for several years early in my career (when you are needed home the most with small kids) it takes a HUGE toll on your QOL and relationships. If you don't believe me...do the math.
Start the clock the minute you leave the driveway of your home and stop the clock the minute you start getting paid. Do that for both going to/from work, add up the time and project that over a career. I get the fact people LOVE living where the live, but if you have a choice between two airlines and one has a base where you live....no brainer, unless your family is willing to move to one of the other airlines base! Then the decision becomes MUCH more difficult and many other variables probably need to come into play.
Good luck and congrats on having a decision like this!
09-04-2017, 09:41 AM
#20
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Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: Petting Zoo
Posts: 2,074
Originally Posted by Myfingershurt
Commuting is not that bad. You guys are serious drama queens. Living where your wife will be happier is way better for your health than living in base. Especially if that base is ATL. I feel safer walking around NYC than I do walking around downtown ATL. That being said, Being able to book jumpseat a five days ahead of time (Delta) make commuting super easy.
I feel safe in NYC. I have not felt threatened in downtown ATL either. Not sure what that has to do with topic at hand.
My job choice was a 100% based on driving to work, so that'd be my vote. Both great places to be.
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