Not that they vote until off probation....may have last pilots who can vote on next contract on property now.

We will swap proposals in the spring time and we will not see a contract until United or American gets one. We need a solid me too clause if by chance we come in number 2. Unless United and American shoot for major retirement changes I do not see huge gains on this front. I am all for them, I just think we are chasing our tails on this unfortunately. Hopefully we can atleast get medical.

I don’t think there will be a contract at the end of 2019. Maybe at the end of 2020 and by then most of the 2019 hires will be able to vote.

I'll get the thread back on topic here:

The stock market has not been fun the last month. Pretty much since Trump's arrival, the market has been on an incredible run. It was violently tempered last month. We can discuss why this happened until the cows come home without any agreement whatsoever.

A 401K allows me to have (some) control over my investments. Period.

We saw in the past what happened to a DB. It was taken. Fleeced. Gone. It's horrible. I am utterly disgusted that in the 90's and early 2000's, corporatism took over for capitalism. Instead of the true trickle down economics, we saw CEO's use the laws of our country to line their pockets, greedily pocketing millions while their employees suffered greatly. What Delta/Northwest/United/American/(insert company here) did, using the laws of the time to take what was rightly someone else's money was and is flat-out disgusting.

What I am terrified of is that happening again. I realize/recognize that there have been laws written to prevent that history from repeating. But that's while the economy is good. Imagine we hit a recession or even depression. Delta runs to court and pleads with a judge that unless they stop the DB, Delta will flounder. No judge in America will sign off on that. The precedent has been set. Certain companies have been listed as "too big to fail". Delta will be one of those companies. I promise you.

That is why I don't want a DB. It can and will be taken away from you and I. Your 401K is not touchable (yet).

Love it or hate it, U.S. Capitalism is Corporatism. This will continue until wealth disparity gets so badly out of whack that the proverbial pitch forks come out and this grand experiment implodes. "True trickle down economics" isn't a thing... it's an (effectively disproved) economic theory that ignores human greed.

I'm not sure when a majority of our population will come to realize that working hard here often DOESN'T get one ahead, or that 'the system' doesn't facilitate simply pulling oneself up by one's bootstraps. Whenever that happens, we're all eff'd.

Think of it this way. You work for 45 years paying $$$ into Social Security at an average of $7K a year (which WILL go up) for a total of $315K only to realize that it will be either gone or means tested for those retiring in 30 years. Add in the huge looming debt, healthcare and college tuition increases, not to mention the forecasted lower stock market returns versus in the past 30 years plus much higher taxes than those experienced the past 30 years and those younger have a huge wall ahead of them. Means testing 401Ks that people saved? Nothing should surprise anyone 30 years from now.

The DB plan was a benefit that each individual that participated in it had earned. It was a specific amount for each individual even though you didn't have a specific account. It's exactly like I described.

This.

I'm not looking for your sympathy. I want you to understand the scope of the loss and why some guys who, thru no fault of their own, are truly hosed.

I don't think you realize that the figures I posted were only based on what I had already earned and NOT based on a 60% FAE. Based on that, the numbers would be much higher.

Denny

There was an economist being interviewed on NPR/MPR (can't remember which) that was talking about the new tax law not generating the return (to the tax coffers) expected. The reason sited was that the corporations that are saving the tax money aren't sending it down to the worker-bees to spend and be taxed. Instead, the corporations are doing things like stock buy-backs (sound familiar) and investing back into the corporation, neither of which generate the tax revenue expected by the new law. Another example of 'trickle down economics' not having the desired effect.

This.

And when were we actually able to invest in a 401k? I seem to remember it was a few years after I got hired. Could be wrong though.

Denny

Generally a very good post. I applaud you for it.

The one thing I would say is that the new hybrid version of a DB looks to me to have the same/similar protection from forfeiture that a 401k does. The law would have to change to forfeit a new DB..........and like you said, a law could make you forfeit your 401k too......

Everyone needs to realize that a new DB type plan is of little to no benefit to me or anyone who has less than 5-10 years left. About the only reason I'm arguing so vehemently is I feel like diversification of income stream is huge for retirement. That along with being able to tax shelter more of your income is a good thing.

Denny