Originally Posted by higney85

The issue that we (DL) have is different groups. There are those who are senior in both age and seniority ranges that saw the previous DB die (obviously, by this thread, in a few different ways, but none have the initial promise-however you slice it). There are those with a military pension and tricare. There are those with only the 401k after shambles (DZ folks). There are new folks who never had a DB. We all get to meet 401C as a “soft limit” (in simply my opinion) with a realization that the next contract will likely be the last for close to half of DL pilots. Yes, it’s easy to say 10 years will be half, harder to say where a contract 1-5 years from now will bring, and where folks in the last 5 years will try to shelter their money-health and other unknowns, known. Life happens. So what do folks want? Well, sure, (real time) give me 50% FAE for some that want the pension restored. That’s not happening. Reality says so. Some want to bank away as much as possible, safely, for the next 1-10 years in something tax sheltered, others have a longer horizon ranging from maybe 10-35 years.

So what can be done?
Billon(s) dollar question.

Well, 401C is higher in 2019, but not by much. Roth IRA rules (backdoor for most) was raised a little for 2019. HSA is a thing now to max out, for those without tricare. For those with more than 10 years, a 401C max/back door Roth IRA/HSA is all that can be done, in pure “retirement labeled” accounts. That’s a good chunk of money in coffers for retirement. Yes, you can do a mega Roth with 401A, but those doing that likely have a tax professional helping with that and/or have other taxable income streams, by opinion. Those with 20+ to go can max everything out in tax shelters and have plenty for retirement with a little personal finance of a savings account and taxable brokerage. Not saying that’s what to do, but the numbers support it if you are doing a Roth 401k/Roth IRA and using some 401A profit sharing to help bolster, with a full HSA to boot. The numbers can be quite amazing, with tax sheltering, with historical returns.

Cool stuff, but what about the other 50% of the pilot group that doesn’t have that time?!

Well that’s the conundrum. Regardless of time left on property the last stats have more than half the DL group hitting 401C limits of 55K hitting the 401K. (2019-56k, Ira backdoor-6k, catchups still the same by my math~$7k between the 401/IRA)

So this is a first world problem. Yup, it’s still a problem. For higher income earners, another “silo” is needed. Only thing untapped? Hello DB. That’s the only other avenue for a retirement tax shelter. The new “hybrid DB” is a far cry from the previous idea of a pension. Everyone shares the risk from day 1. The company must fund it, they can’t count it on it’s books (this sounds like a 401k...right?) but the money is pooled for those involved. The 16%DPSP on the check, it’s not taxed now, but growing in an account of the world economy instead of a IOU in a pension. That helps those making their top dollars now, to retire shortly to a (nominally, lower tax bracket). It also allows the company to contribute. Not owe, payday by payday contribute. I have yet to find PBGC insurance costs on this plan. So it’s a pool of money, off company books, managed outside of the company, with accounts in our names and DL contributions each paycheck. Sure, the market has been in a tailspin, and will likely remain volatile with politics, but it’s a tax shelter of 16% for more than half the pilots’ income, with additional contributions, for tax savings and growth prior to retirement.

So I ask, what do you do in your CURRENTLY taxable account of DPSP cash, without company contribution? Well, you are already down 30%ish by taxes, now have capital gains (if you made any in 2018....), and you have no contributions.

Back to square 1- where are you at DL?-.... nobody loses if your DPSP goes to an account that is tax sheltered now, gets a contribution from the company, and grows with the market (managed by those who manage money-in lue of those who fly planes and think they are market professionals).

That’s the new DB. Yes, the 401K and DC remains, BUT.... that overage AKA- 16% on the check as DPSP cash? Yup, that goes to an account that grows as retirement and not immediate income with a x% contribution from DL to help it grow... we call that the new (hybrid) DB.

Holy crap I sound like a salesman. Just do the damn research yourself to find the loophole not explored. The kicker becomes taxes. The company gets to write off the contribution, you get to defer the taxes. Uncle Sam always collects in the end, and by my understanding... upon retirement the account is obviously yours, but it’s a taxable account. So you can put it into an IRA (RMD at 70.5) or cash out (taxes now). I imagine (can’t find confirmation) that you could roll it into an immediate annuity, which has its own yearly tax implications, but less than immediate. Still ends up better than full taxes in your high income years.

At the end of the day, the reps will decide, all will adapt.

Originally Posted by MoonShot

The big issue/question for me is what happens if you leave early? I assume there would be some requirements for receiving such a DB (age and years of service)? I’d rather just have what I earn, when I earn it, and have the ability to say “see ya” anytime I’d like, tax consequences be damned. I mean, one way or another, you’ll be paying taxes. It’s impossible to tell right now what the tax landscape and retirement laws will be in 30 years. JMO.

Originally Posted by Trip7

DAL DB Termination and the PBGC

Let’s step out of the timeline for a moment and consider some additional information as it relates to the DAL DB Plan termination. At the time the plan was terminated, it had approximately $1.7 billion in assets compared with approximately $4.7 billion in liabilities. Additionally, the two Delta non-qualified plans had been costing Delta cash outlays of approximately $84 million per year in benefit payments. The assets of the DAL DB Plan were turned over to the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (PBGC) on December 31, 2006 and the PBGC became responsible for providing benefit payments calculated in accordance with the DAL DB Plan rules and formulas, but subject to the PBGC’s priority scheme and benefit limitations.

The detailed rules, regulations, and limitations of the PBGC are beyond the scope of this Report, but they will be discussed in broad terms. The first limitation is that the PBGC doesn’t protect non-qualified benefits at all, meaning the pre-merger Delta pilots who had a formula benefit that exceeded the 401(a)(17) limits immediately suffered a loss of the non-qualified portion of that benefit. Next, the PBGC has developed six “priority categories”, labeled PC-1 thru PC-6, to determine how the plan’s assets are allocated to accrued benefits. Without getting too deep into the technicalities of the structure, the categories that are relevant to the DAL DB Plan are categories PC-3, PC-4, and PC-5.

The benefit paid under the PC-3 calculation is the benefit the pilot would have been eligible to receive had he retired three years prior to the date of plan termination (DOPT), but using the DAL DB Plan provisions and IRS limitations that were in place five years prior to DOPT. So any pilot who was already retired, or was eligible to retire, on September 2, 2003, is generally owed a PC-3 benefit. When the DAL DB Plan terminated, its assets were sufficient to cover only 93% of all eligible pilots’ PC-3 benefit amounts.

Since the assets of the plan were exhausted paying PC-3 benefits, the PBGC itself was then responsible for paying all applicable pilots a PC-4 benefit. Generally, this benefit is calculated as the lesser of a) the pilot’s full vested qualified formula benefit, or b) the PC-4 maximum guaranteed amount of $30,978 (at age 60) for a plan terminating in 2006. For pilots who have benefits payable in PC-3, their PC-4 benefit is the excess (if any) of the benefit determined under this PC-4 calculation over their PC-3 benefit.

However, in the case of the DAL DB Plan, the PBGC (as part of its negotiations with Delta in bankruptcy) agreed to the termination of the plan only if Delta committed to pay the PBGC a note of $225 million upon bankruptcy exit. Furthermore, as a result of the termination, the PBGC received a bankruptcy claim in the amount of $2.2 billion. Upon Delta’s exit from bankruptcy, the note and claim were valued at an aggregate $1.23 billion and that money was shared, via a complicated formula, between plan participants and the PBGC in relation to their respective losses. As a result, participants’ PC-3 benefits increased to 100%, and additional funds flowed into PC-5. The result is that those pilots whose accrued benefit exceeded their PC-3 or PC-4 limited amounts were entitled to an additional benefit in PC-5. The PC-5 benefit, in general terms, covers the remaining benefit under the plan -- but only to the extent that there are PC-5 assets allocated to cover these amounts.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by sailingfun

You left out one other factor of why the PBGC payments can be as high as 8000 at age 65. All of the above is based on retiring at age 60 since that was the mandatory age number in place at plan termination. Waiting to age 65 increases that number substantially. As a example a 4400 a month PBGC payment goes to 7200 a month at age 65. As I mentioned before there are additional reasons beyond the increase that make taking the money prior to 65 a poor choice.

Originally Posted by badflaps

You keep saying that. I have yet to hear from anybody that has received that kind of money from the PBGC.

Originally Posted by GogglesPisano

I see a lot of people holding their hands to their ears and yelling, "LaLaLaLaLaLa" when a DB is mentioned.

What if this DB is in addition to and not at the expense of our DC plan -- and our DPSP cash?

Originally Posted by iaflyer

I'll sum up my concerns:

1) People never thought the original DB would go away, but it did. Concerns that a future BK or whatever might get the "new" DB taken away somehow, or that the company uses it as a weapon to demand pay cuts down the road. Don't underestimate the ability of a company's lawyers when big money is at stake during tough times.
2) Apparently high management fees might reduce my returns
3) Takes away my ability to use the DSPS cash for other things, like my kids education fund, real estate, or other after-tax investments.

Originally Posted by GogglesPisano

Re-read my post -- what if this new DB doesn't affect your DPSP Cash?