BobZ

Why be hatin on navy types? Lol.

BeatNavy

You could at least try to debate any of those points that I made. I mean it took me a while to type out lol.

But this isn't about my opinion (which you keep trying to make it about), because my opinion doesn't matter until it comes to my vote, at my airline, on my scope clause. This is about the argument that legacies/ALPA are making, and me pointing out the obvious holes in those arguments, while presenting a pro-American case. I'd love for you to debate my points and show me where I'm wrong. I like learning.

But if you want my personal opinion (which again, doesn't matter), it is that no one should have an unfair advantage and use underpaid, outsourced labor, or government handouts, that subsidizes an operation, whether that's ME3 or US3 airlines (or any others). I'm about as patriotic as it gets, and I think US airlines should strive to be the best in the world, from product, operational, and profit standpoints, and be able to do it on a level playing field. And I think all US airlines ought to do their own flying. I wish these same lawmakers making noise about this issue would make a law saying that any passenger getting on a plane that says Delta on it is actually getting on a Delta plane operated by Delta pilots. The passengers don't know what "operated by Skywest dba Delta Connection" really means. Sad that I support government intervention to make a law to fix your scope issue since you guys can't seem to fix it yourselves.

What is your opinion? Are you for underpaid, outsourced labor? Or taking government subsidies? Or are you only ok with it when it's your airline doing it? Hope you vote no to any TA that allows you guys to keep outsourcing and demand to take your flying back.

Tailhookah

Agree with all you said. I was not on the line when scope was invented. I voted no to contract TA 1 a few years ago. All we can do is vote and put pressure on our MEC to follow what we believe. I’m hard on Delta and Alpa when it comes to TA’s, Scope and other issues. From our first exchange though, you tried to turn it around and agree that Qatar had the right to do this, even though they agreed not to. Open Skies is that agreement to wage fair biz practices. JetBlue has firmly been on the foreign and cheating side (by publicly supporting Open Skies violators) from the beginning. I’d hope you guys would see that and try to use your Alpa Mec to help change it. Cheap labor flooding into our country on cheaply run certificates is not good for any of us. Even you.

I believe in following agreements. Fair trade. Fair biz. Let the product prevail.

BeatNavy

With regards to Qatar's "right" to do it, it would come down to the words used in said trade agreement (kind of like determining a scope violation). If the sole purpose of buying 49% of Air Italy was an end-around, yet legal move according to the words in the agreement, well the trade agreement had a hole in it, and perhaps the trade deals should be renegotiated with tighter language. Was it ok for Air Italy to fly to the US before? If was ok before, but not ok now, is that solely because Qatar is injecting (govt subsidized) capital into the airline they now own part of? Was it ok to buy C series from a foreign manufacturer that was barely afloat solely due to government subsidies? Lots of people in the US said no and backed Boeing's argument that the product wouldn't exist if it weren't for unfair gov't subsidies. JetBlue and Delta both supported it...obviously they stayed on the side of the argument that benefitted them. That's just how it goes.

My point is plenty of other government subsidized airlines, or transactions relating to companies that are subsidized in some form, do business in and out of here, and the US3 have their own subsidies, dealings with subsidized carriers/companies, and their own outsourcing/ownership of cheaper foreign carriers. The whole globalization and intertwining of airlines owning each other thru these JVs is making the lines very blurry with a lot of these arrangements, especially open skies/freedoms of the air, and international access in general. I'm not saying any or all of it is right (or wrong). Clearly if an oil rich country and its government owned airline is capacity dumping at a loss on what are highly lucrative routes for airlines, that creates an artificial, impossible to compete with market. And it isn't fair to US companies/pilots. Well, is capacity dumping NY/BOS-LON by an unnamed legacy with very coincidental timing with JB's LON service fair when said legacy airline is subsidized by cheap, outsourced labor? And also what if said legacy is losing money on those capacity dumping routes with the sole purpose of smoking JB out while covering the loss with profits from outer routes? Of course since you work them...it's just capitalism baby.

The other thing is these countries probably can't stand to hemorrhage money forever. That said, good trade agreements need to be in place for 'Murica. But from the JB/FDX/Atlas CEOs' letter and stance, it's kind of hard to argue their point. They just want a fair shot at their international access and don't want to be penalized in a politically driven trade agreement war if the EU turns the tables against US carriers for access to EU countries if we are sticking it to EU-related carriers due to their JVs/ownership structures.

And in JB's case, JB is a tiny player trying to compete against a few giants, who all benefit from "unfair advantages" and who are themselves intertwined with cheaper foreign airlines and outsourced labor, which makes it kind of ironic that Ed and ALPA are saying JB/FDX mgmt are supporting the bad guys in an anti-American scheme. If Ed truly cared about US jobs, he wouldn't have Aeroméxico pilots fly his 787s and he'd put all DCI pilots on your seniority list. But he and the shareholders (and anyone who votes on a PWA that allows for any of it, even a single RJ) cares more about profit$ than US jobs, and to say otherwise is laughable. Robin Hayes on the other hand is just trying to get access to his homeland to slowly grow his small, pesky little blue east coast regional airline, existing as a David fighting several Goliaths who collude to try to keep the little blue guys out of their sandbox.

So yeah, the ME3 can suck it for as long as they take subsidies and participate in unfair business practices. But so can scope that allows RJs, these international JVs, and every other anti-competitive practice that hurt US pilot jobs a lot more than a few Air Italy flights would.

Tailhookah

The C series you mention. Or the A220. The same planes that JetBlue is getting because of Delta’s successful victory against a b/s claim by Boeing.... right?

Those planes now have a 300% discount. Guess Delta’s legal move vs. a whiny Boeing paid off for you also.

The rest is noise. It’s an agreement that’s been broken. You seem so well informed, it seems you were there with “Al” at the table as his chief legal counsel when Qatar made the b/s agreement knowing they’d end around.

JetBlue continues to push against the legacy carriers. Unfortunately for JetBlue, the legacy carriers no longer seem willing to give you guys a free pass. Hence why your CEO continues to buck US decorum and support these foreign carriers that try to subvert the US labor and airline market.

Hope for the best for you. Don’t root for the foreign company too hard. It’s not going to go well, especially with DJT supporting the American worker for 6 more years.

JamesBond

oooooh nasty.

sailingfun

The thing is the are not doing that. They tried it for summer only flights and still had to stop for gas and restrict loads Westbound. They did not even consider it in the winter.

lavService

Norweigan only lost $172 million in the first quarter. Full airplanes don't equal profit. Norweigan should be paying Boeing for grounding the Max. Boeing is helping them lose less money.
https://media.uk.norwegian.com/pressreleases/norwegian-reports-increased-revenues-and-reduced-costs-for-the-first-quarter-2863948

Buck Rogers

Good one....

Tailhookah

Cargo is a huge revenue booster for anyone. Fly a 321 or max and try to compete with WB’s which are filled with cargo and pax?.... can’t do it. You’re going to get raped. Simple economics.