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Old 05-20-2019 | 01:10 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by tunes
Except it did happen....


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Then it's awesome!! What a lucky guy!
Thanks for watching his back and I hope he'll get it again soon!

Come work in training and you can get it too!
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Old 05-20-2019 | 02:36 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Baradium
If the instructor had already started the office day, then it's an FAR violation. If they hadn't started their office day yet, it's a union question.

That’s not entirely true. Two excerpts from the part 117 clarification document (emphasis mine):
Type of Duty That Is Included in an FDP
SWAPA asked for clarification about the type of duty that is part of an FDP. SWAPA provided the following three types of duty as examples, and it asked which of these examples would be part of an FDP: (1) duty prior to an FDP; (2) duty after an FDP; and (3) flight training device duty after an FDP.
The definition of FDP in § 117.3 states that ‘‘[a] flight duty period includes the duties performed by the flightcrew member on behalf of the certificate holder that occur before a flight segment or between flight segments without a
11 See 77 FR at 379.
required intervening rest period.’’ Thus, duty that occurs prior to an FDP is part of that FDP if there is no required intervening rest period between the duty and the flight segments that make up the FDP. Duty that takes place after an FDP, such as flight training device duty, is not part of an FDP, as it does not occur before a flight segment or between flight segments.


A4A and Alaska Air asked whether a rest period that is longer than the regulatory minimum could be terminated early if the resulting rest satisfied the minimum regulatory requirements. ALPA asked whether an air carrier could contact a flightcrew member when the flightcrew member is off duty but not on a rest period to give a flight assignment. If so, ALPA questioned whether the carrier must provide at least 10 hours of rest prior to the flight assignment. ALPA also asked whether a flightcrew member could voluntarily elect to ‘‘pick up a trip’’ from open time if he or she will have the requisite rest prior to the report time for that trip.
As discussed above, the start of a previously-scheduled FDP can only be changed by utilizing the reserve provisions of § 117.21. As such, a certificate holder that wishes to bump up the time of a previously-scheduled FDP would have to provide the flightcrew member with the pertinent long-call-reserve notice of the FDP change. Alternatively, if a certificate holder anticipates that it may need to call in a flightcrew member for an FDP, then that certificate holder should provide the flightcrew member with the required 10-hour rest period and then
43 Letter to B. Stephen Fortenberry from Donald P. Byrne (June 24, 1991).
place the flightcrew member on short- call reserve.
These circumstances change if a flightcrew member decides, on his/her own initiative, to pick up a trip from open time, as the regulations do not prohibit this practice as long as the flightcrew member has received the required rest. However, the FAA cautions flightcrew members that
§ 117.5(a) requires a flightcrew member to ‘‘report for any flight duty period rested and prepared to perform his or her assigned duties.’’ The preamble to the final rule explains that this provision was added to the regulations to, among other things, ‘‘discourage flightcrew-member practices such as picking up extra hours.’’ 44 Thus, while a flightcrew member is free to voluntarily pick up extra flight hours from open time, the flightcrew member may be in violation of § 117.5(a) if this activity results in the flightcrew member becoming unduly fatigued.
Turning to ALPA’s other question, if a flightcrew member is not on a rest period, the certificate holder may contact the flightcrew member to schedule a flight assignment.45 However, pursuant to § 117.25(b) and (e), the certificate holder would then need to provide that flightcrew member with the requisite rest period prior to beginning the FDP. The certificate holder would also have to follow the FDP notification requirements of long- call reserve, as this type of contact and FDP assignment would qualify as long- call reserve pursuant to the definition of that term in § 117.3.


Otherwise all green slips would require 10 hours notice for rest periods.
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Old 05-28-2019 | 04:41 PM
  #33  
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From: 737 FO
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Originally Posted by Dexter
That’s not entirely true. Two excerpts from the part 117 clarification document (emphasis mine):
Type of Duty That Is Included in an FDP
SWAPA asked for clarification about the type of duty that is part of an FDP. SWAPA provided the following three types of duty as examples, and it asked which of these examples would be part of an FDP: (1) duty prior to an FDP; (2) duty after an FDP; and (3) flight training device duty after an FDP.
The definition of FDP in § 117.3 states that ‘‘[a] flight duty period includes the duties performed by the flightcrew member on behalf of the certificate holder that occur before a flight segment or between flight segments without a
11 See 77 FR at 379.
required intervening rest period.’’ Thus, duty that occurs prior to an FDP is part of that FDP if there is no required intervening rest period between the duty and the flight segments that make up the FDP. Duty that takes place after an FDP, such as flight training device duty, is not part of an FDP, as it does not occur before a flight segment or between flight segments.


A4A and Alaska Air asked whether a rest period that is longer than the regulatory minimum could be terminated early if the resulting rest satisfied the minimum regulatory requirements. ALPA asked whether an air carrier could contact a flightcrew member when the flightcrew member is off duty but not on a rest period to give a flight assignment. If so, ALPA questioned whether the carrier must provide at least 10 hours of rest prior to the flight assignment. ALPA also asked whether a flightcrew member could voluntarily elect to ‘‘pick up a trip’’ from open time if he or she will have the requisite rest prior to the report time for that trip.
As discussed above, the start of a previously-scheduled FDP can only be changed by utilizing the reserve provisions of § 117.21. As such, a certificate holder that wishes to bump up the time of a previously-scheduled FDP would have to provide the flightcrew member with the pertinent long-call-reserve notice of the FDP change. Alternatively, if a certificate holder anticipates that it may need to call in a flightcrew member for an FDP, then that certificate holder should provide the flightcrew member with the required 10-hour rest period and then
43 Letter to B. Stephen Fortenberry from Donald P. Byrne (June 24, 1991).
place the flightcrew member on short- call reserve.
These circumstances change if a flightcrew member decides, on his/her own initiative, to pick up a trip from open time, as the regulations do not prohibit this practice as long as the flightcrew member has received the required rest. However, the FAA cautions flightcrew members that
§ 117.5(a) requires a flightcrew member to ‘‘report for any flight duty period rested and prepared to perform his or her assigned duties.’’ The preamble to the final rule explains that this provision was added to the regulations to, among other things, ‘‘discourage flightcrew-member practices such as picking up extra hours.’’ 44 Thus, while a flightcrew member is free to voluntarily pick up extra flight hours from open time, the flightcrew member may be in violation of § 117.5(a) if this activity results in the flightcrew member becoming unduly fatigued.
Turning to ALPA’s other question, if a flightcrew member is not on a rest period, the certificate holder may contact the flightcrew member to schedule a flight assignment.45 However, pursuant to § 117.25(b) and (e), the certificate holder would then need to provide that flightcrew member with the requisite rest period prior to beginning the FDP. The certificate holder would also have to follow the FDP notification requirements of long- call reserve, as this type of contact and FDP assignment would qualify as long- call reserve pursuant to the definition of that term in § 117.3.


Otherwise all green slips would require 10 hours notice for rest periods.
None of these examples above apply to the scenario and in no way does it apply to a normal green slip because they occur outside of a duty period.

Non flying duty prior to a FDP counts as part of the FDP the same way a deadhead does. If you have only a deadhead you are on duty but since you didn't start duty as a FDP you cannot fly afterwards without 8 hours of rest. IE, the duty period cannot retroactively become a flight duty period, you have to start the duty period as a flight duty period. This is why on a deadhead only duty period you cannot be rerouted into flying. By your logic this would be legal.
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Old 05-28-2019 | 06:58 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Baradium
None of these examples above apply to the scenario and in no way does it apply to a normal green slip because they occur outside of a duty period.

Non flying duty prior to a FDP counts as part of the FDP the same way a deadhead does. If you have only a deadhead you are on duty but since you didn't start duty as a FDP you cannot fly afterwards without 8 hours of rest. IE, the duty period cannot retroactively become a flight duty period, you have to start the duty period as a flight duty period. This is why on a deadhead only duty period you cannot be rerouted into flying. By your logic this would be legal.
Still wrong. https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/data/interps/2015/fowler%20-%20(2015)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf
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Old 05-28-2019 | 07:18 PM
  #35  
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From: 737 FO
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Originally Posted by Dexter
That is for an assignment made at the beginning of a deadhead only duty period and is still not applicable.

Since its been a big push here to ensure legality, I'm guessing at a minimum you don't work here.
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Old 05-29-2019 | 09:05 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Baradium
That is for an assignment made at the beginning of a deadhead only duty period and is still not applicable.

Since its been a big push here to ensure legality, I'm guessing at a minimum you don't work here.
Which rule or rules do you think it violates?
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