But the policy is currently that not extending requires a fatigue report. Which I believe is the actual sticking point to most pilots.

The fatigue report is so long and involved that it is it’s own deterrent, particularly to pilots, who as a group, are averse to paperwork.

I’m curious how often, whether consciously or unconsciously pilots extend and push the envelope in an attempt to avoid filling out that report/not make a situation when they can “muscle “ through.

Yes, the Patrick Burns email was a warning to pilots that if you refuse to extend that is a fatigue issue. It will result in a lot of paperwork, calling the duty pilot, talking to tracking, having the chief pilot call you, and an FCR report. This is all to intimidate pilots into not refusing an extension in my opinion. Also, he said other airlines take vacation time from pilots when calling in fatigued. Can anyone tell me one airline that does that? I doubt the FAA would go along with that either.

Huh. Only did it once. Think the paperwork took about five min. Could tell tracking was sad to hear me say no, but zero pressure or pushback from anyone.

Was a non event. Made the right call that much easier

That was a response to another poster. I never said it was, but that is the companies policy which is well known. As I stated before, I believe that if you choose not to extend their should be no re-course, no paper work, and does not matter the reason. You should be paid no matter what. The problem is, we don’t live in that world.

Refusing to extend may be an unfit for duty issue, not necessarily a fatigue issue. There is a difference. The minute you utter the "f" word, the operation stops and the goal is to get you into rest ASAP. Unfit for duty may lead the crew trackers to reroute you to a shorter leg/duty period.

The Chief Pilots' Office has been removed from the unfit for duty/fatigue call process. You should only be talking to Crew Tracking and the Duty Pilot.

American, United, Southwest, and, I believe, Jet Blue have policies in place to permit a pilot to be compensated for an unfit for duty/fatigue call not caused by their company. The pay adjustment may come from a sick bank or PTO. At this point, Delta does not have such an option.

Fortunately I've not had to do an extension yet in my few years at Delta, but I was frequently put in that position at my dirtbag regional. A few extensions I accepted, most I didn't. I never accepted one if the FO wasn't comfortable and 100% on board with it. There were a few instances where I accepted a 30 or 60 minute extension, but not the full two hours.

The ones I didn't accept weren't because I was fatigued at that moment, it was because I know my body and I knew that I was already starting the downward slide and that I would definitely become fatigued at some point during the extension. That wouldn't be safe and I wasn't going to be put in that situation.

Fwiw at jetblue if the CA does not accept an extension and the reason is fatigue, it is treated as a fatigue call (in accordance with the fatigue section of the CBA (PWA)), and the crew goes into rest immediately, a fatigue report is filled out, and it goes to the fatigue event review committee. If it goes into a day off, extended pairing segment pay is added to the DH back to base on that day with a min daily credit for that day. Fatigue calls are 100% paid out in instances where the operation caused the fatigue, and any issue where an extension (and associated refusal) exists generally meets this criteria. If for whatever reason the FERC deems it a personal fatigue issue and not an operational reason, PTO is used for the unflown segments (again not applicable for an extension refusal due to fatigue, as that is by definition operationally induced).

If a CA refuses an extension for any reason other than fatigue, he is pay protected, but may be required to DH on the flight if the flight still goes (can “deviate” and if a commuter self DH home at that point and still be paid). A weird part at JB is if the CA refuses an extension for other than fatigue, flight CXLs, goes into a day off to DH home the next day, CA will get pay protected for that canceled leg and for the subsequent DH home the next day, but won’t get extended pairing pay (premium) or any rigs for the added day to the pairing, to include min day guarantee (as he would if it were for fatigue). Meanwhile, the FO gets premium pay and all rigs if he goes into a day off for the same cancelation due to the CA refusing an extension (since it’s the CA’s refusal, not the FO’s).

Also at jetblue, an FCIR is required if an extension is refused for a reason other than fatigue. Easy enough to just type in “I didn’t want to,” or “safety” and be done with it, but an annoyance to do any paperwork nonetheless. An extension should be (and is by definition) an exception, not the norm, and an FCIR (flight crew irregularity report) should not be required for an extension refusal. It should be the other way around. Why should I fill out an irregularity report if I refuse to go beyond what the FAA determined was the limit of a duty day? That’s one area I hope JB (and I guess you guys too?) fixes in their next contract.

So jetblue potentially pays out (to the CA at least) a lot more if “fatigue” is used during an extension refusal. Also, if you don’t fatigue and just refuse the extension, you can get stuck waiting for a crew to get called out just to DH you back and get no additional pay (other than rigs for that pairing), whereas a fatigue call in the same scenario would have netted an immediate hotel and 5 hours at 150% (if into a day off) the next day. But, in no case would a JB pilot be docked pay for refusing an extension (though a CP may follow up the FCIR with a phone call and ask about it.)

Related to this discussion, and maybe this is possible in your negotiations, I think an extension should pay 2 hours pay credit on top of the rest of that pairing’s credit (I think UAL does this?). Saves the company money on a greenslip or burning a reserve, gets the flight out right then and not waiting on a reserve, saves on crew hotels if the flight cancels, crew would still get home that day and would get a little extra pay to go the extra mile, and of course if fatigue is an issue that option is always available...seems like a win-win and should be achievable without using much negotiating capital.

Anyway, sorry for the long post, just throwing out what exists at blue for reference.

Thanks for the clarification. Makes more sense now!:)

Denny

You guys can make something hard that is really easy. If your fatigued call it in and go into crew rest. A good Captain will ask each pilot if they have a issue with continuing and let them know that if they do he will call the company and put the crew into rest without the other pilots name even being brought into the conversation.

Long ago I flew for a fractional operator, our max duty day was 14 hours and min layover was 10 hours. The pilots had the ability to extend, on their own, 30 minutes, anything over that you had to call your program manager and explain to them why you feel it was safe to go the full 16 hours.

It was really different when I got here and you have to explain why you can’t go.