Dickson and ALPA
07-14-2019, 03:15 PM
#111
Banned
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: The Beginnings
Posts: 1,317
Originally Posted by sailingfun
She is certainly deadset against commuters getting PS to work and feels it’s a huge safety issue. She also believes it counts as duty time under FAR117 and Delta is in violation of FAR117 when PS is granted.
A big fear when the Part 117 rules were being hashed out was that commuting to work was going to be counted as effectively "on duty." It was initially proposed, but retracted due to the virtual elimination of pilots being able to commute to work on their own time. Pilots would pretty much have to live in base....a huge can of worms for so many reasons.
Fatigue was cited as a contributing factor in the Colgan Air crash that spurred the Part 117 rules. The copilot had been (legally) commuting for long hours into position before reporting for duty.
The flying public would be appalled to know that it's perfectly legal for pilots to commute all night, sleep a couple hours in a crew room, slam back some coffee, then fly a 13 hour scheduled day. As long as they state, "Why no, I'm not fatigued. Not at all."
07-14-2019, 03:38 PM
#112
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Left seat of a little plane
Posts: 2,399
Originally Posted by deltabound
It's a reasonable argument. (But for lawyers, not line pilots, to make. Big difference)
A big fear when the Part 117 rules were being hashed out was that commuting to work was going to be counted as effectively "on duty." It was initially proposed, but retracted due to the virtual elimination of pilots being able to commute to work on their own time. Pilots would pretty much have to live in base....a huge can of worms for so many reasons.
Fatigue was cited as a contributing factor in the Colgan Air crash that spurred the Part 117 rules. The copilot had been (legally) commuting for long hours into position before reporting for duty.
The flying public would be appalled to know that it's perfectly legal for pilots to commute all night, sleep a couple hours in a crew room, slam back some coffee, then fly a 13 hour scheduled day. As long as they state, "Why no, I'm not fatigued. Not at all."
A big fear when the Part 117 rules were being hashed out was that commuting to work was going to be counted as effectively "on duty." It was initially proposed, but retracted due to the virtual elimination of pilots being able to commute to work on their own time. Pilots would pretty much have to live in base....a huge can of worms for so many reasons.
Fatigue was cited as a contributing factor in the Colgan Air crash that spurred the Part 117 rules. The copilot had been (legally) commuting for long hours into position before reporting for duty.
The flying public would be appalled to know that it's perfectly legal for pilots to commute all night, sleep a couple hours in a crew room, slam back some coffee, then fly a 13 hour scheduled day. As long as they state, "Why no, I'm not fatigued. Not at all."
We can always find statistical outliers. At some point we have to be able to grant a pilot the benefit of the doubt regarding their own rest state and fitness for duty.
07-14-2019, 04:13 PM
#113
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,116
Originally Posted by Herkflyr
It's also perfectly legal for a non-commuter to be up half the night with a crying infant, have an 0600 report, meaning he or she is waking up at 4 (not even including said crying baby), get stuck on I-285 after a tractor trailer jackknifes, and then fly a long duty day, with a few swigs of coffee to keep them going.
We can always find statistical outliers. At some point we have to be able to grant a pilot the benefit of the doubt regarding their own rest state and fitness for duty.
We can always find statistical outliers. At some point we have to be able to grant a pilot the benefit of the doubt regarding their own rest state and fitness for duty.
Cheers....J Epstein.
07-14-2019, 05:11 PM
#114
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Posts: 6,716
Originally Posted by Herkflyr
It's also perfectly legal for a non-commuter to be up half the night with a crying infant, have an 0600 report, meaning he or she is waking up at 4 (not even including said crying baby), get stuck on I-285 after a tractor trailer jackknifes, and then fly a long duty day, with a few swigs of coffee to keep them going.
We can always find statistical outliers. At some point we have to be able to grant a pilot the benefit of the doubt regarding their own rest state and fitness for duty.
We can always find statistical outliers. At some point we have to be able to grant a pilot the benefit of the doubt regarding their own rest state and fitness for duty.
07-14-2019, 05:47 PM
#116
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Originally Posted by Herkflyr
It's also perfectly legal for a non-commuter to be up half the night with a crying infant, have an 0600 report, meaning he or she is waking up at 4 (not even including said crying baby), get stuck on I-285 after a tractor trailer jackknifes, and then fly a long duty day, with a few swigs of coffee to keep them going.
We can always find statistical outliers. At some point we have to be able to grant a pilot the benefit of the doubt regarding their own rest state and fitness for duty.
We can always find statistical outliers. At some point we have to be able to grant a pilot the benefit of the doubt regarding their own rest state and fitness for duty.
And I live in base.
07-15-2019, 03:23 AM
#117
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,314
Let me first say I have commuted most of my career. The standard argument that pilots who live in base can be just as fatigued as commuters really does not carry much weight. Yes there are many reasons someone can be tired before a trip. Commuters have all the exact same issues as pilots living in base AND they have to commute to work.
I think commuting is safe when properly managed just like living in base. The problems come from a minority of commuters who choose to do things like catch a all-nighter from HNL to LAX to connect LAX to ATL and start a 6 day international trip. We are one accident away from the end of commuting as we know it because a minority of commuters can’t do it responsibly.
I think commuting is safe when properly managed just like living in base. The problems come from a minority of commuters who choose to do things like catch a all-nighter from HNL to LAX to connect LAX to ATL and start a 6 day international trip. We are one accident away from the end of commuting as we know it because a minority of commuters can’t do it responsibly.
07-15-2019, 04:20 AM
#118
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Left seat of a little plane
Posts: 2,399
Originally Posted by sailingfun
Let me first say I have commuted most of my career. The standard argument that pilots who live in base can be just as fatigued as commuters really does not carry much weight. Yes there are many reasons someone can be tired before a trip. Commuters have all the exact same issues as pilots living in base AND they have to commute to work.
I think commuting is safe when properly managed just like living in base. The problems come from a minority of commuters who choose to do things like catch a all-nighter from HNL to LAX to connect LAX to ATL and start a 6 day international trip. We are one accident away from the end of commuting as we know it because a minority of commuters can’t do it responsibly.
I think commuting is safe when properly managed just like living in base. The problems come from a minority of commuters who choose to do things like catch a all-nighter from HNL to LAX to connect LAX to ATL and start a 6 day international trip. We are one accident away from the end of commuting as we know it because a minority of commuters can’t do it responsibly.
07-15-2019, 05:43 AM
#119
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Position: stake holder ir.delta.com
Posts: 10,066
I've done both. Now, I choose to live in base because my QOL is light yeas ahead of when I commuted. I got in to this career partly because I could live anywhere. After marriage and kids my priorities changed. I don't think anyone should be forced to live in base but rest is everyone's individual responsibility, both before reporting and after. I do think it's the out layer who will ruin it for everyone if/when.
07-15-2019, 06:29 AM
#120
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: Volleyball Player
Posts: 3,982
Originally Posted by marcal
M comment on this issue from another thread:
"After reading that, I would have pulled her from the line for mental testing as well. Why? Bc she’s as senior as it gets and decided to make a mountain out of a molehill by going so high up in the chain with pretty baseless accusations, ie no safety reporting? She mentioned a few “incidents” that could have been worse and while correct, we were trained in each CQ cycle as well as safety bulletins, etc. regarding them. Based on her blogs and books, it’s obvious she wanted(wants) to build a name for herself. The fact that she is going after management pay for lack of interviews for a position is galling. She knew this would only lead to problems and if she didn’t than she doesn’t have the SA that I want in a pilot upfront. She should have been filling out ASAPs and FCRs on her NRT layovers, not running from department to department screaming “fire” where there really is none."
"After reading that, I would have pulled her from the line for mental testing as well. Why? Bc she’s as senior as it gets and decided to make a mountain out of a molehill by going so high up in the chain with pretty baseless accusations, ie no safety reporting? She mentioned a few “incidents” that could have been worse and while correct, we were trained in each CQ cycle as well as safety bulletins, etc. regarding them. Based on her blogs and books, it’s obvious she wanted(wants) to build a name for herself. The fact that she is going after management pay for lack of interviews for a position is galling. She knew this would only lead to problems and if she didn’t than she doesn’t have the SA that I want in a pilot upfront. She should have been filling out ASAPs and FCRs on her NRT layovers, not running from department to department screaming “fire” where there really is none."
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