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-   -   Early Out,Retirement,Furlough Negotiation (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/delta/129787-early-out-retirement-furlough-negotiation.html)

Schwanker 07-09-2020 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iflylow (Post 3088497)
We don't have to have pilots needlessly being retrained and out of position when the the eventual recovery happens.

You’re confusing yourself with management. It’s up to management to staff the airline for the down turn and recovery. We’re just pilots, a line item in their books. We have a PWA. They need to abide by it and we need to enforce it. If they want something changed, we’ll it’s open. Management can bring there happy butts to the table and hash out a new PWA. Until then, wind the clock.

I’ve been furloughed over 5 years. I’m not in favor of paying for hostages. If we cave every time they threaten furloughs, it will be a weekly occurrence. Now is not the time for concessions. Contract is open. Time to negotiate a comprehensive deal or wind the clock.

Coffeepilot1 07-09-2020 09:44 AM

I’ve been furloughed too, not at Delta but previous employer. A 75 percent revenue drop is a pretty good reason in my mind to ask for an ALV reduction. I personally view it a QOL gain, it won’t last long.

Grapple 07-09-2020 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LumberJack (Post 3088663)
Wouldn't a lump sum be far less money overall? Bird in the hand only works if it's a sufficiently big bird! I think ALPA weighed the pros and cons against the risk of bankruptcy and decided this was the best option.

That depends on the deal that was made...it could have been structured with the tax penalties so that the net amount received over the 3 years was the same. I don't know if DALPA looked at that but if it was an option I bet there would be more takers.

iflylow 07-09-2020 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schwanker (Post 3088683)
You’re confusing yourself with management. It’s up to management to staff the airline for the down turn and recovery. We’re just pilots, a line item in their books. We have a PWA. They need to abide by it and we need to enforce it. If they want something changed, we’ll it’s open. Management can bring there happy butts to the table and hash out a new PWA. Until then, wind the clock.

I’ve been furloughed over 5 years. I’m not in favor of paying for hostages. If we cave every time they threaten furloughs, it will be a weekly occurrence. Now is not the time for concessions. Contract is open. Time to negotiate a comprehensive deal or wind the clock.

No, I am not confusing myself with management, unless you think having ALPA trying to engage with management in order to have a say about our collective trajectories and have ours members best positioned to weather the storm counts as being management.

Turbo1 07-09-2020 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iflylow (Post 3088314)
The industry is facing a crisis never before seen in its history. We'll be lucky this year if we can even get 25% of last year's revenue, and we are looking at years of severely depressed revenue.

We’ve had a massive AE/displacement that negatively affects up to 7000 pilots, including over 3500 who have to make a trip to Virgina Ave on the way to a lower paying aircraft, a transcon commute, or a swap from the left to right seat, or a combination of these. We have over 2500 pilots who very well may lose their jobs completely.

In the short term, the company needs to cut their cash burn to get through these lean years. In fact, it would be negligent not to. The question we, as a Union, have to ask ourselves is do we want a say in it, and perhaps even eventually get something in return for it.

The way I see it, the entire industry is getting pummeled. Delta is drowning, along with everyone else. Some of it definitely is because of Delta’s own self inflected decisions, but by far the majority of the reason is this global pandemic.

We as a union are sitting on the shore, and telling them “Tough luck, it’s not our problem.” We gave them a half expired enfant life vest (in the form of SILs), which didn’t even come close to holding their weight and became offended that they didn’t take it.

We keep this up and they’re going to pull us in and we’ll drown together. They’ll go through with the AE because we gave them no choice. Thousands of pilots will needlessly be displaced and our QOL and pay will suffer.

Or we can, in the short term, throw them a line, in the form of much needed short-term flexibility in the form of a temporary TLV reduction. Maybe this line would include ironclad snapbacks, and perhaps even a few sweeteners when things return to normal after the pandemic subsides.

In return for a temporary TLV reduction, this MOAD can be reduced to only the 777 and MD88. Thousands of pilots can stay in their positions, without the need to start commuting or a month on Virginia Ave. 2500 pilots can have jobs for at least another two years. The union hopefully can get a few long-term gains, and the company negotiators can go to their bosses and show they obtained the much-needed short term relief.

Of course, there are the 7500 pilots on this bid who weren’t displaced. Many are on SM giving every excuse under the sun on why they won’t agree. “We don’t trust management,” “I was furloughed before, so you should be too.”

It comes down what do we value as a union? The company is going to get its savings no matter what. They are paying nearly 10,000 pilots right now to sit around and do nothing. There are no incremental raining costs right now. We are going to force them to run this AE for them to get their savings. Some pilots will be taking 30,40,50% paycuts. 2500 pilots will take 100% pay cuts. And a few vocal ones will take no paycut.

Or, we as a union can spread that pain evenly through a TLV reduction, while keeping by far the majority of pilots on their current equipment in their current bases, tremendously improving their QOL.

And finally, the union would be taking care of their most vulnerable 2500 members.

It’s not often there can be a mutually beneficial solution for both sides, but this is one of those times. This pandemic is decimating the industry. Let’s give the company the desperate short-term relief they need, keep people in position and ready for the rebound, and hopefully get a few long-term gains along the way.

this mindset makes me want to vomit

LumberJack 07-09-2020 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grapple (Post 3088694)
That depends on the deal that was made...it could have been structured with the tax penalties so that the net amount received over the 3 years was the same. I don't know if DALPA looked at that but if it was an option I bet there would be more takers.

I've never seen a deal where a lump sum was as much as the annuity. Lottery winnings, life insurance, legal settlements, early retirement packages... never. Can you show me an example where lump sum equalled annuity?

Grapple 07-09-2020 10:31 AM

Nope, I can't.

Doesn't mean that it couldn't be negotiated.

What did Don Rickles say? "Make a deal" ;)

OOfff 07-09-2020 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grapple (Post 3088720)
Nope, I can't.

Doesn't mean that it couldn't be negotiated.

What did Don Rickles say? "Make a deal" ;)

there’s a reason a lump sum is less, and no reason for a company to agree to any other scenario. “It could be negotiated” is a meaningless phrase.

DeadStick 07-09-2020 10:35 AM

What if Delta doesn’t declare BK? What if the recovery plods along slowly as predicted and the last of the 2500 furloughs is finally recalled after 36 months by Thanksgiving of 2023. How would that make us look? We would have unnecessarily subjected 2500 Delta pilot families to tremendous hardship.

Several accuse the company of taking “2558 hostages.” But aren’t those hostages being equally played by the “no concessions” crowd? Each one furloughed a token of bitterness and distrust, vengeance for past aggrievance that they mostly weren’t even here for.

This is my 4th union airline. My position on the seniority list here is pretty safe (for now). I guess I’m just an old school guy and have always bought into the union brotherhood look-out-for-each-other thing. Perhaps I’m just a naive idealist as others have been accused. Every single UNA on here certainly appears to prefer a furlough, and in fairness several of the arguments from the “no concessions” side are not totally without merit.

Wolf424 07-09-2020 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeadStick (Post 3088728)
What if Delta doesn’t declare BK? What if the recovery plods along slowly as predicted and the last of the 2500 furloughs is finally recalled after 36 months by Thanksgiving of 2023. How would that make us look? We would have unnecessarily subjected 2500 Delta pilot families to tremendous hardship.

Every single UNA on here certainly appears to prefer a furlough, and in fairness several of the arguments from the “no concessions” side are not totally without merit.

None of those advocating for furlough think it will last 36 months. That’s the problem. They know about as much as anyone else wrt the duration of this CF.

As a UNA, I have admittedly selfish reasons for wanting to save my job. You can’t fault anyone for that, especially those with families to support.

However, I refuse to scream for an “hour reduction to prevent furloughs”, nor will I scream “no deals with management under any circumstances”. Haven’t seen a proposal from the MEC on any sort of deal, so how could I know if I’d vote for it? Me personally? I’m not willing to hallow out the contract to save my job. Having said that, if the right proposal comes down, I’d entertain it. That’s how I’d use my .00069% of voting power.


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