QOL
07-09-2020 | 04:46 AM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,529
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From: UNA
I think that had more to do with having 10 fleets and a network planning dept that mixed up flying among fleets so much that endless deadheads ensued. Don’t know if that will change ( well except we are now at 8 fleets)
07-09-2020 | 05:51 AM
#12
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 5,128
Likes: 91
Scoop was comparing days of old (lost decade) with more recent operations. A comparison to our peers' productivity is not really germane, but is that what you were alluding to?
07-09-2020 | 05:54 AM
#13
Banned
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,982
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From: 3+ hour sit in the ATL
RG has said he could run us at 1000 less pilots.
They did last summer. So much so the then VP of OPs sent a nice little "so sorry" email admitting they had run it hot.
OMG, we are undermanned now, better start hiring again - boom, china flu
They got lucky. Manning won;t be an issue for them going forward next 24-36 months. Optimizer 4.0 becomes aware.
07-09-2020 | 06:15 AM
#14
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Joined: Mar 2016
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From: Here and there
I have been wrong before but I doubt we are looking at another lost decade for multiple reasons such as:
**Back then all the legacies were extremely inefficient with LOT bidding, trips touching etc. Switching from that to PBS really hurt but this time we were running a lean operation.
** Most of the legacies parked hundreds of FE planes resulting in hundreds of FEs switching to FO.
** Age 65 with the pension loss basically eliminated most retirements for 5 years.
** Major mergers with huge efficiencies reducing plenty of flying.
IMHO those were very large contributors to the lost decade none of which we are looking at now. Throw in some early outs and hopefully this episode will be short lived. Then again Covid appears to be the blackest of black swans so who is to say the asteroids wont hit next year.
Scoop
**Back then all the legacies were extremely inefficient with LOT bidding, trips touching etc. Switching from that to PBS really hurt but this time we were running a lean operation.
** Most of the legacies parked hundreds of FE planes resulting in hundreds of FEs switching to FO.
** Age 65 with the pension loss basically eliminated most retirements for 5 years.
** Major mergers with huge efficiencies reducing plenty of flying.
IMHO those were very large contributors to the lost decade none of which we are looking at now. Throw in some early outs and hopefully this episode will be short lived. Then again Covid appears to be the blackest of black swans so who is to say the asteroids wont hit next year.
Scoop
I am glad I read the rest of the thread before responding to the OP, because you said exactly what I would have said, only you did it better. 9/11 did crush the Industry, but by the time I got furloughed in March of 2002, our planes were mostly full. The problem was our yield. Every time we tried to raise prices, others would follow,but if memory serves, NW wouldn’t raise prices and we would rescind the price hike within a couple days. Management would say every time we raise prices $10 one way and $20 round trip, we lost millions in advanced bookings within hours. I don’t know if it’s true or not, but we also had JetBlue growing like crazy with cheap labor and low overhead. That would have resolved itself with “capacity discipline” within a year or two.
The biggest hit to the lost decade was the retirement age change and the consolidation that occurred. Combined, they reduced the need for pilots drastically. I have no problem giving guys who lost their pensions an extra 5 years to make it up, don’t get me wrong, but combined with the mergers that occurred, contributed to a lack of need for pilots. I don’t see this as being even a 5 year event.
By next summer, I think things will be back to normal. By 2022, we will be making big profits again. I read somewhere that we will achieve herd immunity in November, but even if we don’t, or if that doesn’t make people more comfortable, we will certainly have a vaccine by next spring. By next summer, in my humble, unscientific opinion, we will be cash flow positive again. When I got furloughed after 9/11, there was no talk about lowering ALV’s to save our jobs. And Management isn’t any different, at heart today. The only reason they may be willing to entertain a lowering of ALV’s this time versus 20 years ago.....is because they believe this will be short lived, as well. They don’t want to be scrambling to catch up 6-8 months from now. Just my opinion, and depending on what the terms are, I will vote for what’s best for all of us, not just me. If they really do approach us for an ALV reduction, with iron clad language that no furloughs will occur, or else we snap back to normal levels, that will actually be good news, as they’re trying to keep everyone available for the recovery. Again, this is just my opinion, and I am worried about the state of our industry, but I do believe things will come back quickly.
The biggest hit to the lost decade was the retirement age change and the consolidation that occurred. Combined, they reduced the need for pilots drastically. I have no problem giving guys who lost their pensions an extra 5 years to make it up, don’t get me wrong, but combined with the mergers that occurred, contributed to a lack of need for pilots. I don’t see this as being even a 5 year event.
By next summer, I think things will be back to normal. By 2022, we will be making big profits again. I read somewhere that we will achieve herd immunity in November, but even if we don’t, or if that doesn’t make people more comfortable, we will certainly have a vaccine by next spring. By next summer, in my humble, unscientific opinion, we will be cash flow positive again. When I got furloughed after 9/11, there was no talk about lowering ALV’s to save our jobs. And Management isn’t any different, at heart today. The only reason they may be willing to entertain a lowering of ALV’s this time versus 20 years ago.....is because they believe this will be short lived, as well. They don’t want to be scrambling to catch up 6-8 months from now. Just my opinion, and depending on what the terms are, I will vote for what’s best for all of us, not just me. If they really do approach us for an ALV reduction, with iron clad language that no furloughs will occur, or else we snap back to normal levels, that will actually be good news, as they’re trying to keep everyone available for the recovery. Again, this is just my opinion, and I am worried about the state of our industry, but I do believe things will come back quickly.
Excellent, optimistic posts my friends. It’s hard to be positive but every crisis is different at its core.
07-09-2020 | 06:15 AM
#15
Moderator
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,252
Likes: 95
From: DAL 330
Seriously? I was comparing the "Pre" COVID environment to the "Pre 9-11" situation and highlighting the differences. C'mon man, I may be no Charles Dickens but surely my post wasn't that poorly worded. Please go back and note that you are erroneously comparing "were" to "is" and are obviously suffering from some type of space time anomaly either that or you don't take "tense" seriously.
Scoop
Last edited by Scoop; 07-09-2020 at 12:42 PM.
07-09-2020 | 07:12 AM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 13,230
Likes: 677
From: ir.delta.com
What??? I still have a copy of a letter from last fall describing our under staffing and a commitment to do better. If you are referring to just the Covid era, it really doesn't matter. We all know everyone industry wide is struggling to maintain currency. Really, what is your point with this statement?
07-09-2020 | 07:53 AM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 12,823
Likes: 168
From: window seat
To whatever level we're "unproductive" it was by their design for revenue optimization and performance metrics. That's fine. But they don't get to use that against us. Ever.
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