I would say the more fatigued you are the harder it is to tell that you are fatigued. I quite often after getting into the van to the hotel actually realize how tired I was or am. The current NB trips are just recklessly built to maximize profit at the cost of all other factors including safety.

No one I've talked to has ever said they are afraid to call in fatigued. No one I've talked to who has called in fatigued has ever received serious pushback. Stop making this into a boogieman...

I have called in fatigued when needed. Never even asked for a explanation even when it resulted in a canceled international flight.

That would mean the rotations really are not fatiguing then because VERY few pilots are calling in fatigued. So why is everyone complaining about how bad the rotations are? If they are not afraid to call in fatigued why are more pilots not doing it?

for me, undesirable rotations and actual “I can’t safely complete this flight” fatigue are not always the same.

This.

Many MANY of the trips are built lately to a level that will possibly/likely result in a fatigue call. Some days you actually feel pretty good and can safely complete the schedule. Other days not so much.

It’s the same as a sick call. If you’re sick you’re sick. If you’re fatigued you’re fatigued. A crusade against **** trip construction is different. Not saying the trips don’t suck but we lose the deserved high ground if we conflate the two issues, however tightly related they may be.

I follow this logic and I know there was a lawsuit with another carrier (AA) I think. My question is when does the change in schedule quality and flexibility become and change in status quo? The numbers post in the OP are from 2018 or basically since the amendable date. Could ALPA try and enforce status quo for a change?

Exactly. Many of us are unhappy that there are very few one and two day trips. That's a complaint, but not a fatigue issue.

I also flew a poor trip a couple of months ago. It was an ATL-DEN-ATL turn. Worth about 6 hours. Normally those go senior. There was a reason I got it. There was a 3.5 sit in DEN, different airplane going back of course, no lounge, no place to relax away from the crowds. We just had to grumble and find a restaurant then some quiet corner. It sucked but I couldn't I good faith claim I was fatigued.

But I sure check the sit times more carefully now!

This. 1000x this.

Unrealistic to expect that out of pilots. Last time I called in fatigued, it was most obvious fatigue call ever, yet the captain refused to back me and even went out of his way to make sure duty pilot knew he was good to go. It was obvious he was ****ed about my decision but I didn't really care because I've been here so long. No way a new hire would have stood his ground.