You could always go join your peers, where you will stop loosing(sp?) money.


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Multiple furlough letters not being able to plan your life. Yeah you wouldn't understand. Each genration has its own lost genration where the previous group doesn't think the new group has gone though enough to deserve recognition. It's sad that that's how it's still done to this day.

I will be very professional as I have always been but strictly by the contract and nothing more. Nothing extra nada thing.

Yes SP. Yeah I'm not dumb enough to give up 5 years to go do something better. But comments like yours are always the reasoning behind why the contract can be better. Its always why dont you just go fly for "X". But it is clearly you that have no concept of how sernority systems work at airlines... :rolleyes:​​​​​​​

Surprised it took you until 2020 to realize employees are just numbers to corporations. Better late than never though!

“Our” trips don’t mirror SW trips. I noticed how you made sure you avoided the comparison. Just that our trip pay is “better”.

2019 really did it I thought Delta might be different but yeah they are far from different.

the sad thing is our trips dont pay better. If you are flying a 21hr hard fly 4 day at SWA you are doing something wrong...

No problem with fly the contract. Especially in section 6.

I’m sorry you all had to go through the uncertainty but in the grand scheme of life’s “injustices” that was a big nothing burger. I’m extremely happy everyone is back and rocketing upwards in opportunity.

Just a little friendly advice that you can obviously ignore. Don’t martyr yourself. 30 years is too long to be angry about the UNA blip.

never said I was going to martyr myself, but also not going to give an inch over minimal effort. No reason to give more than minimal. It's in our best interest to always give minimal effort. Minimal effort = more staffing

Doing more than minimal has gotten us horrid rotations, short overnights, and TYFAD with no real improvements in 2.5 years...continuing to do the same thing and expecting different results is just the definition to insanity. Break the trend!

Man, I hate the “you think you had it bad, talk to ____” argument. No one owns the ultimate hard time.

All I will forward with is how UAL creates the sense of union from day one with half wings, eight ball ect...
Here at DAL it's dog eat dog. Our group has no sense of union and instead creates an entitlement of mine (see DZ, see non DZ, see lost era, see una, see ect...) it was fantastic to see all the GS go out while there were people out on UNA. You got yours so who cares about the una people. After all they deserved it for being JR at major airline....how foolish of them to think they made it and would be covered by DALPA...

I'm sure Delta management is quite pleased with the infighting as they don't actually have to do anything. As it generally better than it was and worse than it is. So with our method no one wins and everyone loses.

From the perspective of a new hire this has not been my experience so far. I happen to have been exposed to United's new hire process (short of going through it myself) and found them to be very similar. One thing that stood out to me about indoc with Delta is how appreciative they were that we decided to choose them. This was not the language I was expecting from management, given Delta's reputation for wanting to "be the best." Some of the leadership even went as far to acknowledge that they know some of us may even leave to other carriers due to geographic (base) reasons but they also hope we decide to stay for the rest of our careers. Actually what is funny is that the one presenter that kept repeating that Delta is the best (perhaps besides the B-day ladies) and the gold standard and all that was the guy supposedly representing the FAA!

I also appreciated that current pilots stepped up and volunteered their wings to new hires given the supply chain issues with brass right now. I was very grateful to have had a wing ceremony and they kept mentioning they are planning something special for the new hires that weren't able to get one due to world events.

As a side note--UAL's 8 ball ceremony is a union event and not without it's controversies in the past. That's all I'll say about that.

Glad to hear new hires experiences are getting better. 5yrs ago it was more of the "y'all are lucky to be here". Maybe all those annual surveys are working. United alpa 100% had more of a feeling of union and looking out for each other (Yes, I worked under both) Just look at what United agreed to vs Delta during covid talks. There wasn't a single Delta captain I flew with willing to take an hr of reduced work to save anyone else from a furlough, unlike what United agreed to do. Sure they'll all claim they were protecting the pwa but it was just greed and selfishness.

remember LOA 20-03 voluntary scheduling options that would have saved some furloughs and barley passed 51-49 and the biggest gripe was some thought it might lead to having to sit an extra SC or 2 ( but it did not change the number permitted)

I don’t agree with your greed and selfish comments at all, as a whole. I know there will be exceptions, but the group voted overwhelmingly for the LOA. Most people I talked with about this were in favor of helping out in any way. What they were worried about is the way the bankruptcy pay cut that was agreed to and then more was taken. So it was a healthy amount of skepticism, but the company chose the direction more than the Union from what my reps told me. Which is in line with the MOAD before VEOP and all the other shenanigans.

Dude, this is such a ****ty attitude. And you guys wonder why “no one cares about the DZ’s”. You just can’t help yourself from shouting about how you had it worse. FFS. Education is one thing, but rubbing younger guys noses in it is entirely different.

Easy to say - after the fact - when you weren’t staring down the barrel of the gun.

This is so ironic, it’s pathetic. Talk about tone deaf.

I’m sorry for your experience, but mine was different. The vast majority I flew with voiced support for the UNAs. There were outliers, but I felt supported. Granted they could have voted differently, but I didn’t hear that.

I wasn't furloughed, nor a deadzoner. By all relative measures I've had a charmed career, for which I'm extremely grateful. However I'd say the same thing to guys hanging on to the pensions, SLI injustices, furloughs, whatever: let it go.

My grow up comment was in response to DM threatening 30 years of min effort. Maybe I mis-read his "fly the contract" stance, but it sounds like a lot of baggage to carry around for a long time.

Could management have handled it better? Absolutely, particularly with SILs or something similar a-la United. It was also an epic hundreds-of-parked-jets-tumbleweeds-in-the-streets period of time - easy to forget that after the fact.

This. Don't confuse my lack of a pity party for lack of compassion and support. I was all on board to take lower pay, cover health insurance, etc. Most "senior" pilots I spoke with at the time felt exactly the same way. Glad you guys are all back. I just flew with a UNA on my last trip and the dude was awesome. Much better to focus on what we have in common than what divides us.

​​​​​​I called my alpa rep after seeing several communications adamant about not reducing work to save UNA's and was told I was the ONLY person who had expressed a willingness to work less to save the UNAs. He basically tried to tell me how it was a bad idea and that it wouldn't work.....I was blown away. Thankfully the cares money kept everyone on board....

why would they go up when the Duty Pilot doesn't have your back?

Numerous convos with pilots + my own experience shows that calling in fatigued is still frowned upon, and while maybe not be punitive, "on the radar" is a very real thing

​​​​​​Everytime I've called in fatigued the duty pilot has 110% had my back. Never caught any flack from anyone afterwards either. As someone who was at one point a little paranoid at work, I simply don't feel any "threat" from my cpo. Nobody should be afraid to call in fatigued/sick...

I'm envious. That was not my experience last summer. Both times, the Duty Pilot just told me that I was legal for it. No support. None.

My experience with this (twice in the last 12 months) was 180 out. Total support from duty pilot and system worked well. As far as “being on the radar”, I don’t care if my name is in bright lights with a red carpet leading to the CPO, I’ll call in fatigued when appropriate.

I think I would chalk that up to a bad experience/Duty Pilot, Crown. The recent DALPA MEC podcast has gone out our their way to say the experience is zero threat, and there is zero tracking (there isn't really a mechanism, according to APLA).

If you are fatigued, please call it.

This. Fatigue reports are de-identified.

You said, "I'm fatigued." And his response was, "it's legal?" I've called in a few times during a legal rotation and I've never gotten any flack or pushback.

I’ve called in several times (2 over the last 3 months most recently), never had pushback.

Quite frankly the last time I called in I didn’t need an extension, it was just a long day with crappy sleep and the hour delay in the second flight was just too much for me. What can I say, I’m a wuss.

Don’t call the DP looking for justification, you have nothing to prove to them and they are not the judge. Their only job is to acknowledge and process your UNfit/Fatigue status. If a DP gives you pushback I’d say “I understand you don’t agree, I am still calling in fatigued.” I would certainly note the DP pushback in the report to ensure the FAA gets eyes on it.

LOA 20-03 passed by 93 votes....not my definition of overwhelmingly

This. They are facilitating downstream changes that will happen so you can get the rest you need. Don’t ask them anything, tell them. Tell them you’re done and when you’ll be rested again to be safe to fly.

That said, I’ve had nothing but excellent support from the Duty Pilots when I’ve had to call fatigued or not extending.

In my humble opinion, this is the biggest difference between my employer (U) and Delta, wrt fatigue calls. There shouldn’t have to be a “conversation” with anybody in order not to extend. Acars message comes across and says pretty please, you type back “unable to extend” and it’s done. All the pairing modifications happen automatically without speaking to a soul. If Delta keeps the current process in place, there will always be a certain percentage of pilots who feel like they’re being sent to the principal’s office and will extend just to avoid it. Yes it’s wrong headed and weak, but we all know it’s true. Remove the required conversation with a human from the “unable to extend” process.

I called in fatigued last year before I even checked in for my trip because I didn't sleep well due to sick kids. Absolutely no push back. The duty pilot just told me to fill out the report and the company would determine if I would be paid out of my sick bank. He was very understanding and gave me no problems. Fatigued is fatigued no matter what the cause. You or 100% pay protected even if it has to come out of your sick bank. Never feel like you have to fly fatigued.

What support were you looking for? Was his statement you were legal for the reroute correct or incorrect? That fact your legal for the reroute has no bearing on if it’s safe and you should or should not accept it. When you refused it did he threaten you? Did you have a negative follow up with anyone from flight ops?

Just ask "is it legal to fly fatigued"?

You should also add, “This call is taped correct”. Now if you reported that day at 9 am and it’s noon and the reroute gets you done at 3 you might expect some follow up.

I called, to explain the situation, and that I was debating calling in fatigued. After he went over the extension legality and telling me I was good for several more hours, he said I could call in fatigued, but reminded me about 4 times that I was legal. When a duty pilot tells you a bunch of times you're legal, he's telling you to not call off, and that if you do, it's going to come back to you. You can disagree with me on this, but I'm calling it like it happened to me. So yes, forgive me if I'm afraid to call in fatigued, out of fear of pushback from management.

Btw Sailing, your comment about "was his statement you were legal for the reroute correct" says to me you'd push back on anyone who calls in fatigued. Nice job.

I'm not sure what the point of this is, were you calling for advice? Either call in fatigued or not fit for duty. No other reason to call the duty pilot. I'm not sure what you expected them to say.

There is nothing to explain..you are either fatigued or you aren't. The duty pilot isn't in the position to tell you how fatigued you are. You told him about the reroute, he reviewed it, and told you it was legal..what else did you think he would say?

Calls with the duty pilot are not recorded.

This is the problem right there. “I am fatigued”. Case closed. You asked for advice and he gave it.

Make a command decision. You’re a Captain, right? Or going to be?

We haven’t gotten ACARS messages for extensions in a while, at least I haven’t. They just update your schedule and expect you to show up. It’s on you to realize you’re going into an extension. Although the LATT worksheet on the dispatch release will show it.

If you’re not going to extend, you need to call and let them know the flight isn’t going, at least not going with you in the seat.

I don’t disagree with the bolded part.

Question to the DL group from a FDX guy.

We at purple are fighting the same fight with revisions and extensions. You would think wanting it fixed and a contract sooner than later would encourage people to fly there line. By adding extra flying via draft/GS you are condoning the extra abuse. Are you seeing a lot of your pilot group still flying a lot of “extra” flying voluntarily? Most in our group is happily still going above and beyond with a big Thank You from management.