It’s the same here a DAL. There’s a sizable segment of our group that’s addicted to green slips.

Remember that there’s a difference between a line holder and a reserve doing a green slip. A line holder GS is helping to fix staffing the problem. A reserve GS is just pushing the issue down the road (and potentially making it worse for the company). Just sayin.

^^^^THIS^^^^. Work smarter, not harder.

Unless its a GSWC. How about IA?

The beauty of a reserve GS is that it is for all intents a GSWC--yet covered at the earlier GS step of trip coverage! Yes, I let the secret out, but that is it's true brilliance. I've long contended that a reserve GS should be coded differently in the daily trip coverage, just so guys get a true feel for what the trip coverage for that day is doing.

Regular GS: you've permanently solved scheduling's problem, albeit for double pay.

Reserve GS: you're only getting single pay above the reserve guarantee, but while you may be solving scheduling's problem today, you are also causing another problem for them down the road when you are NOT available to be assigned flying, because you got the payback days

Unless on those payback days you make yourself available for another greenslip…”then the thunder rolls!”

I was referring to 20-04. 20-03 was completely voluntary, no one had to do a thing. IMHO, it’s wasn’t a great LOA, but 20-04 made more sense and passed much easier.

No, we still get the ACARS with the extension. I got one last week. It's pretty clear in the ACARS you can extend or decline the extension, if you are extending, you just have to ACARS back before you land. IF you're declining, then of course you have to decline it then, because you can't aren't going then.

I would like to see reserve GS or at least IAs always pay above guarantee even if it touches on call days. We are solving near term issues.

I expected him to say "yes, this is legal, but in my opinion, you should call in fatigued."

I'm glad to see that the duty pilots won't help us make the tough decisions. Maybe, just maybe, I was looking for guidance. Instead, I was essentially threatened with "fly it, you're legal." Very regional-esque. But fine. Next time I'll just call fatigued. And when there's a threatening follow up, I'll say "Breezy says there's no gray area, even though I might be legal for it."

Crown, brother, you will get no follow up. There is no negative consequence to calling in fatigued. It's hard to say, since we weren't there, but it sounds like when you called the DP 'on the fence', he/she didn't really know what to tell you other than, "it's legal." Clearly that came across to you as non-supportive, and that's unfortunate, I'll grant you. But there absolutely will not be a threatening follow up. I cannot say strongly enough that you should have zero worry about that. Truly.

If you think you might be fatigued, you probably are actually past that point, and should 'make the call' and then forget about it. Maybe listen to the "Engage" podcast the MEC put out speaking to this exact issue? It will set your mind at ease. Spotify and Apple have it at least.

Man, you ASKED him for guidance. He's sitting in the OCC, being paid by the company. What do you think he's going to say? He can't read your mind, he can only tell you the facts of the rotation.

Calling in fatigued is easy. "I'm so and so, I'm calling in fatigued for my upcoming trip/SC/this next leg." He or she says, "Ok, what time should I tell scheduling you'll be rested?" ... "Ok, I'm sending you a link to a form you have to fill out within 48 hours." End of discussion.

I can't wait until you're a Captain and you're calling for more gas.

I believe this is the correct answer.

The duty pilot cannot tell you that and I would not want them to tel you that. You are the only one that can determine if you are unfit to continue. Their job is to be our advocate in the OCC but are not able to determine a pilots fitness. Sometimes I am exhausted after a short day and sometimes I still have energy after a long day. If you are fatigued or questioning your fitness, then call in fatigued. No repercussions. The pay will be figured out later. Never had any push back from the duty since the process changed during COVID.

I'm going to pile on here. The way fatigue works is only YOU can tell if you're fatigued. No other person, not a CP, not a FA not the Captain, no one, can tell you whether you are fatigued. You are either are or aren't. If you aren't but can't complete the flying as scheduled, you can just call in unfit to fly and tell them what you are rested enough to do. The Duty Pilot is solely a facilitator. It's not his job to tell you how you feel. Again, see who is allowed to tell you if you're fatigued.

Such a simplistic view of GS vs UNA. With the ebbs and flows of covid, if it weren’t for GS on certain fleets, the airline would be in dire straights IMO.

There’s the other side of the coin with UNA’s. “I went back to my old job and put 100k in the bank.” “My wife works so I fixed up the house, it was great”. Always another story.

thanks Fangs. I appreciate that. I bolded exactly what I was thinking; I called more or less seeking council for a situation that was only getting worse (long EDCTs going into the midwest) and yes, looking back on it, I should have just said "I'm fatigued, see you tomorrow." But again, I was seeking some guidance from the Duty Pilot. Yes, I was hoping he'd help me make a tough decision. Believe me, it's not a lack of confidence or anything like that.

I have a rule calling in sick. If my sick call derails the operation that badly, we have bigger problems at Delta. Maybe I should do the same with fatigue calls.

Anyway, thanks everyone. Even Breezy. We don't agree on much, but I think y'all gave me more grace than I deserved. :)

"Expand your team" is never a bad idea and is encouraged. Just remember most teammates have other loyalties to other teams.

They might agree to that if reserve pilots with less days off than the slip in question go to the bottom of the stack and if they forfeit the prorated PB days in question.

Thinking you're getting 4 days of extra pay and 4-5 PB days on top all because you slipped a 5 day on your 1 day off is just silly.

He didn't say anything about PB days also, just pay. It's a moot point thought. It won't happen.

like fangs I think the whole trip should pay over guarantee (but still only PB days for XX days interrupted)

FWIW AA pays the ENTIRE trip at premium (150%) as long as it starts on an off day. So you get a 5 day premium trip that starts on your last off day before 4 on call days, you get the whole thing at 1.5X. Just a FWIW.

I just lol'd for real. Yes, just TELL them what you want. Not, "maybe 1000-2000 extra." Just tell them the exact number.

I don’t believe they get PB days for premium trips on reserve though, I recall having this convo with an AA guy in my reserve unit.

correct they do not,

ours seems better if we get a trip over only XX days

theirs seems better if they can snag a trip that starts on off days but after that covers on call days.

If AA only pays 150%, I’d have to disagree. I like our system overall.

I’m not saying theirs is always better, but it has its benefits.

if I GS a 21 hour 4 day on my last XX day before 3 LC days I get paid the value of whatever I actually flew on day 1 at straight time (probably 2-7 hours extra) plus 1 PB day.

at AA I would get 31.5 hrs over guarantee.

they also don’t have a premium trigger so you could theoretically get rid of your schedule and only fly premium

I was only talking pay. You would only get PB days for interrupting off days in my idea. I can see a GS staying the way it is but this would make a reserve IA more similar to a line IA as there isn’t a trigger for them.

Just my thoughts on improving things.

150% only applies to trips American designates as premium trips. Not any trip you pick up on a off day. Their coverage ladder is quite different than ours. Trips can be designated as premium at any point so it’s usually done in advance and they get grabbed by line holders.

yep. understood on all counts, however the guys I know on reserve there don’t seem to have a problem getting premium that starts on the last day of their off days that goes 3-4 days into their reserve days (and thus all of the trip pays over guarantee at 1.5x).

none of the systems are perfect and they all have their quirks, however I think a fair adjustment to our system would be for reserve GS to pay single time over guarantee for the entirety of the trip and PB days for XX days interrupted

Sort of.

At AA, reserves flying “OG” (over guarantee, straight pay) or “PR” (premium reserve, 150%) must touch a day off. Most NB pilots, which is where the vast majority of the premium is, know this and don’t even put in a ballot for OG… they put in for PR only. If/when crew scheduling can’t fill a trip with long/short call pilots (or “MU”, lineholder straight pay makeup), it will try obviously to fill the trip OG. But since there aren’t any OG takers, it goes PR. Tons of PR going out every day, all NB domiciles and fleets. A typical strategy is to bid short reserve blocks (3-4 days), pick up 3-4 day PR trip over that footprint starting day prior, repeat throughout month. Requires you to actually go fly… but you were going to get used every reserve day anyway, might as well get paid more for it, and everything goes on top of reserve guarantee. Where AA reserve lags: no payback days, can’t do that rolling thunder thing, can’t bid more than 6-7 day reserve blocks if that’s something you want to do.

The company more or less stopped the method by which lineholders could get premium several days in advance. I don’t know why… for a while they’d recognize a lack of reserves upcoming and you could get premium trips 2+ days in advance. That method could always return if they get desperate enough. Now, they only offer premium to lineholders the day prior through a slightly different system. Lineholders tend not to want the 3-5 day trips as “PM” (lineholder 150% premium) so those go PR instead, and the turns and easy 1-1s go PM. Same concept, company would love to give out open time as MU but that doesn’t work when almost everyone is only in for PM. Nice part of AA system: no premium “trigger”, people can and do drop their entire schedules and fly nothing but premium. Senior NB FOs are killing it. AA lags: only 150% versus DAL 200%, although sounds like AA will match whenever a new contract is signed. AA has a silly punitive sick offset thing that’s complete BS, but that’s also going away. We have a “conflict” function akin to your GSWC but it’s rare.

TL,DR: to say premium is “usually done in advance and they get grabbed by line holders” is not exactly true and lacks context.

The PB days is one issue. It appears we agree that is laughably unreasonable. Burn one day off get one PB day (plus any applicable partial, which sometimes becomes 2). That's fair. Get 5-6 should/will never happen.

But so too is the pay he was advocating for. GS'ing a 5 day on your last day off will never, nor should ever, pay 5 days. Lamenting over "good deals" like that just shifts that costing of someone's little Easter egg onto the entire CBA.

One reasonable improvement in that exact section would be to guarantee ADG for the day GS'd on an off day. I may be wrong on this, but IIRC, right now a "partial" GS (my vernacular) only pays the block on that day with all the rest (aka "credit") going onto the reserve days GAR aka "for free" in most cases, right? That could be something we could fix and would be reasonable to do so.

The status of the airline operation should have no bearing on whether or not you call in fatigued. It really is that simple.

This. You can’t be a “hero” if you are falling asleep behind the yoke/side stick. It happens, call it if you need it. Let the people writing these schedules figure it out.

Exactly we don't build the rotations nore set the staffing level. If you're fatigued you're fatigued, if you're tired youre tired, if you're sick you're sick. It's not your problem at all it's the companies for poor planning/staffing. You're not helping anyone by going over and above to get the mission done.

You’re definitely a wuss. But you’re a wuss that’s alive and mishap-free, which is the best kind. 👍

What is that saying about pilots being old or bold? All I know is I am an old and bald pilot - yeah that's it :D

Out of curiosity, has anyone tried calling in fatigued after a long duty day to extend their rest? For example, finish 11 hours of duty, while in the van, call the duty pilot, let them know that you won't be ready for pickup for 12 hours instead of the 10 scheduled, please and thank you? It's getting to the point where I need to start fixing my own rest issues.

I haven't personally done so but that is exactly what you are supposed to do. Call in and tell them you are fatigued and that you need 12 hours of rest before you will be able to continue.

“Son, we’re not going to war. We’re going to Cleveland. We get there when we get there”

In fairness, parts of Cleveland resemble a war zone, so one could understand the confusion. :D