Newish Delta guy here. Do you mind to DM me the Facebook group info? I’m already in the scheduling help group and that’s super helpful. Would like to see what else is out there for discussions like these. Thanks!


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Since you like baseball analogies... I'll take 3 walks and the #4 hitter getting 4 RBIs over singles and an occasional double. Those chances for fly outs and double play balls are more likely to end the inning early with hits, but no runs.

This section alone could take another 6 months. I hope they don’t concede anything here. This and scope are the only two things I’ll be voting on.

It's not baseball. This would work only if you weren't negotiating with people being paid millions of dollars to pay as little as possible on one specific deal. If you continually accept the first middling offer, it is in the interest of the other party to keep offering less and less to play into the strategy of you accepting a fast deal over a good one. Management is paid to "increase shareholder value" which here means find a way to spend less money on labor. It is in their interest to offer the least possible, including $0.0 by just dragging things out asking for concessions, or offering inflation_rate - n%.

Any strategy that doesn't understand this fundamentally misses how labor loses value over time. Management has no time pressure to make a deal unless you make pressure. They aren't selling anything, they are agreeing to pay for what they are already getting and I guess will keep getting at no extra cost. They don't lose money UNTIL they make a deal, unless something changes.

That's just it... they really didn't send anything out.

Thats not completely honest. Did they provide specific numbers? No, of course not. But the overall tone is very different from previous updates and that says a lot.

Herkflyr, I understand your point. To be even more transparent, a pay raise of 24% would NOT equal the 3 sequential raises the FA's already received, agreed?
All the fancy accounting terms aside, It would take us getting a 25.5% raise just to match what they have been given to date. I am expecting more than that. . .(not trying in ANY way to lower expectations, just making sure we clearly understand what raises our fellow employees have been given by the company)

Once again, it's important to not post mistruths. The IFS Q&A doesn't say an FA flying an average line equals to a 16% increase. It gives multiple examples of different flying scheduled and 1 of those examples equals 16% (the highest) and some examples show it being 4-5%. The only way you're getting that 16% scenario is if you're flying a DREAFUL schedule. We've had boarding pay for 6 months now and I have yet to see any FA be over 10%, which is actually lower since boarding pay doesn't apply to sick time, vacation, credit time, deadheads etc so the overall raise is even smaller. In each one of my previous 6 months which are made up of a mix of international and domestic 50/50 i'm just under 7%.

You also CHOOSE to IGNORE the fact that we are also working more time now with boarding pay. Each leg we work an additional 5 minutes. Which further lowers the "real" raise that boarding pay brings.

Also, the 4% received in 2019 is the same raised pilots ALSO received in 2019. Just because we received it a couple of months after doesn't mean it's an "additional" raise, it's just the timing of the raises and i've shown this when I posted historical dates of FA raises which change quite often.

Here's a screenshot of the Q&A you're referring to:
https://i.ibb.co/tmSZ3w4/Untitled.png

This seems like a ridiculous point to make. Not going to get into a pilot vs. FA argument but instead of sitting and playing with your phone for 5 minutes out in the terminal you now sit and play with your phone for 5 minutes in the plane and get paid for it. I find it hard to believe that in reality there is any "extra" work being done for this pay.

We have to be onboard 5 extra minutes and have passengers onboard for 5 extra minutes. That’s extra work. That’s less personal time I have and more time I have to spend with passengers.

As far as your “phone” comments…blah…just shows a holier than thou attitude and entitlement some people have and isn’t really worth addressing.

Positive news. Another big positive is all the "its possible we can strike by Xmas" silliness is put to bed.

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So to be even with the flight attendants we need one 4% raise and let’s call it 10% for boarding pay or just over 14%. I do find the 18% rumored number if the 1.38 billion number in total improvements mentioned by one of the MEC chair candidates plausible. Still even with 800 million for pay and 538 million in other sections we are massively bellowed what we opened for and planned to achieve in 2019.

What you say and what I see with my own eyes every day on the line don't line up - gate agents board when they board & I can see with my own eyes what FA's are doing pre-boarding. Your point is out of touch with audience you are talking to on here. If you don't want the pay you should talk to your Union and get that 5 minutes of your personal time back.

Bellowing about our opener? Don’t you owe TED a beer now?:D

Great news is March is Delta’s biggest month. Let’s hope management is ready to write a big check.

And to be clear, I hope you all end up with a TA that’s at least double those amounts. The more you get, the better the chance that some trickles down to us.

You’ve already said you don’t know actual numbers. Please stop acting as if you do. You don’t agree with the way negotiations are being handled, that’s fine, but stop acting like you have inside knowledge to “prove” your way would be better.

your schtick is getting very tiring

I will be happy to take his bet. I don’t know how you prove where the rumor started but if he can show it’s a management trial ballon I will pay up. I suspect however it’s either a leak or made up by a pilot as I mentioned.

Can you tell me what’s inaccurate?

Really DALFA, a 6 year FA gets 16% only working 82 hours is an anomaly? Most FA's I've talked to normally work 100+ hours! A new-hire FA working 88 hours is getting a 13% boarding pay increase! So I will stick to my original company supported AVERAGE based on facts from the many FA's I conversed with about their average monthly hours. We will just have to agree to disagree on that fact. The 5 minutes lost you bring up, I'm sorry buts it's laughable! I haven't seen a single change in when the FA's board or start boarding on the 737 nor has ANY FA said a single word about the 5 minutes change OR openly complained about it. As far as your first 4% raise, I will let you do a little more homework or fact checking on the timing of that raise and then you can come back and make your correction. 25.5% still stands for the FA's and I'm happy for you. . .now everyone can return back to discussing this "Vacation AIP" thread!

The TVM folks never calculate the Time Value of Concessions.

how do we calculate the time value of QOL improvements?

As soon as I see one I’ll let you know.

PM Sent.

Filler

The part where you don’t actually have any numbers to make your claims with.

I have run through the costs we opened for on here. Others reported in discussions with their reps similar numbers. The conceptional opener and follow on communication back up a 3 billion plus dollar opener. Not a single rep I asked stated that number was high. Several said it was ballpark. Others replied the company can afford it instead of saying ballpark. I am very comfortable with that number.

So you costed out an opener that consisted of a bullet point list of requests made in 2019 and are extremely confident in the accuracy of your numbers yet you admitted your most recent estimate was only 50% of the actual value a couple days ago. Your bias against the MEC is showing.

You don’t have numbers. Stop stating your WAG as fact.

FWIW, the CPO‘s have talking points which claim the contract value was 4 billion per year, and ALPA‘s ask was an additional 4 billion per year. IAW, doubling the contract cost.

I would take that with a giant grain of salt, however, as they have clearly coordinated their messaging, as multiple CPO’s have given me that number lately.

You keep omitting the part of the equation that is required to come up with the answer. Simply looking at the number of hours worked is irrelevant. It's the number of hours worked in tandem with how many flights you actually board. This isn't a "we have to agree to disagree". Your opinion isn't a fact. I look at my paycheck every 2 weeks.

The company has also NEVER said the average FA will see a 16% increase. You're either making this all up just to try and win an argument of you're just totally clueless.

Boarding times on a 737 went from 35 minutes to 40 minutes prior to departure. If you haven't see a difference then maybe start paying attention and/or look in flight family which lists those boarding times.

You can keep living in fantasyland and that's your choice but it isn't based on reality.

Whats Flight Family? Pilots aren't required to use Flight Family. Is that the app we will use to bid vacation in the new AIP?

DALFA, I keep referencing the Q & A that you so kindly posted, yet you say I'm in a fantasyland. I explain that it is NOT my opinion, but based on many conversations with the FA's I fly with. . .I guess they aren't living in reality either. And now you are trying to explain that in a equation that is based on hourly rates & legs flown that if a domestic FA who flys 82 hours and picks up an additional trip won't make at the very least an additional 16% in boarding pay while an 88 hour New Hire makes 13%? You see DALFA, I'm NOT basing this on just your paycheck (as your evidently are), but on the stats that our company has published AND the many FA's that I fly with! While you have digressed into calling me clueless and living in a fantasyland, I continue to present facts and feedback from my fellow crew, THAT is the reality.

Now, unless you have something factual to contribute that represents more than just your personal opinion supported by your own paycheck, how about you keep this professional and quit trying to disprove that the FA's received a 25.5% pay increase since the pilots contract expired over 3 years ago. After all, this is a Pilot's forum and here you are trying to what? Lower our expectations for the current negotiations? Create animosity between crew members? Argue for arguments sake?

I have wasted enough time with this discourse, and I'm sure you will continue to repeating yourself without listening to either the published facts from our company or the feedback I have received from your fellow FA's. The current contract negotiations is OUR battle and we could certainly use your support rather than your divisiveness! Remember, many of the benefits you enjoy are a result of the hard fought negotiations from your fellow pilots that were also given to the Flight Attendants.

Where did you present 1 shred of evidence?

The Q&A I posted listed 5 made-up examples by the company. Not any kind of average.

This is the same company that sent out Q&A giving examples of how those cuts to Profit Sharing a few years back would actually be a good thing.

That's why some of the examples are as low as 4% and 16% is the highest. You're basing your opinion on "many conversations with the FA's I fly with". Seriously? That's what you're going with? I'm basing it off of my actual paycheck that I calculate every 2 weeks and on the composition of our trips. We don't fly 5 legs per day and the number of rotations with 4 legs per day is a very small percentage. Our average is about 2.0-2.1 legs per duty systemwide (based on ACTUAL trip demographic data on dlnet). So boarding pay has a substantially SMALLER impact on earnings than what you're saying. This isn't my opinon. This is basic MATH. Picking up an extra trip is irrelevant to the impact it has on the overall percentage that boarding pay is relative to regular flight pay. The fact that I even have to have this discussion with you is ridiculous. This has been debated ad nauseum even on this board and most people understand that 16% is a gross overestimation.

Average FA that works 80 hours per month -

960 hours per year

Of that 960 hours up to 126 hours are vacation time and an additional 56 hours of personal time.

If you take an average 3 day trip worth 16 hours it takes 5 trips to equal 80 hours in a month. That's 15 duty periods. With an average of 2.1 legs per duty period, that's on average 31.5 legs per month worth 10.5 hours of additional pay. Since only 81% of that 960 annual hours are eligible for boarding pay (again...vacation and personal time aren't) then boarding pay comes out to 102 hours per year in actual boarding pay...which comes out to 10.6% in actual additional wages. Now, this is based on someone that flies strictly domestic. Nearly 30% of ALL block hours are international block hours and on those flights boarding pay has an even smaller impact...more like 3-4%.

You see, all the numbers I just spit out are REAL numbers. Based on REAL trip demographic data. Not based on fantasyland wishful thinking or what my cousin who is a FA told me.

You can choose to keep repeating the 16% lie (taken out of thin air from nothing) if it makes you sleep better at night but I think most can see that it simply isn't the case.

DALFA. This is the 10th time we have had people going back and forth with what FAs make/get.

I don’t care what FAs make personally, I hope you all do well. I am not sure why this topic comes up, why you appear out of thin air, and then there’s 40 subsequent posts about FA life, pay, etc.

If we get a good raise, I am sure you all will too. Because here at Delta ALPA negotiates for every labor group except dispatchers. Reading the same crap about FA pay in 10 different threads with the usual cast of characters is old.

I usually only interject when someone brings up our work group and says something that is incorrect. This is your contract negotiations, I wish that you guys get everything you deserve and then some, I mostly just read what people post on these threads. That's why it may seem like I "pop up" out of thin air...it's because I mostly read these threads and not comment.

I mean this in the best possible way but….

This is the “Vacation AIP” thread, not the “Despite getting a raise after you guys it’s really not a raise because our raises are synchronized because that’s how it’s spelled out in our non-existent contract” thread.

It would be one thing if this was the first time but this is like the 9000th thread derailment over the same issue. If you really want us to get more coin and benefits as you claim, stop detailing every thread with semantics saying we’re not owed as much as we think we are.

Everyone knows your opinion on this issue by now and if there are any more questions you can refer them to the other 8999 threads where this is discussed.

You are arguing this to the wrong people. Obviously we are going to use whatever the company proclomation is to improve our position, whether it's accurate or just propaganda doesn't matter. If they sell the idea they gave a raise of x, we will ask for a raise of x at minimum. Pilots don't control FA rates, and the only use of the information for us is setting a floor for rate increases. No one here is blocking FAs from getting a larger raise, it would be helpful if you did actually since that only moves the floor higher.

We have a participant on this forum who knows exactly how much the opener was valued at. Maybe without giving specifics, he can at least verify if that number is in the ball park or not.

The list I saw back in 2019 did not include profit sharing and we’re based on first year costs. With 2 years of raises the increase in value could have approached 4 billion.

So, back to the Vacation AIP. The NC update said this:

In their At The Table 22-02, the showed some contract comparisons that included all of those carrier plus UPS and FedEx. With that, I think we can assume that the "value" is between the top of the passenger carriers and below the bottom cargo carriers. For a 6 year pilot, that's 93 hrs at Southwest and 105 at UPS. For a 20 year pilot, that's 155 hrs at Southwest and 175 at UPS. Take that by the 21 and 35 days of vacation respectively, and it sounds like they got something between 4.5 and 5 hours per day of vacation. That's a huge step up, but it's still not equal to a min-day amount. Alternatively, that could included more vacation days, but I doubt that changed much.

I'm looking forward to see what they did in terms of selecting vacation weeks, because right now that blows for anyone on the junior side of the scale.