|
Originally Posted by PilotWombat
(Post 3532056)
So, back to the Vacation AIP. The NC update said this:
In their At The Table 22-02, the showed some contract comparisons that included all of those carrier plus UPS and FedEx. With that, I think we can assume that the "value" is between the top of the passenger carriers and below the bottom cargo carriers. For a 6 year pilot, that's 93 hrs at Southwest and 105 at UPS. For a 20 year pilot, that's 155 hrs at Southwest and 175 at UPS. Take that by the 21 and 35 days of vacation respectively, and it sounds like they got something between 4.5 and 5 hours per day of vacation. That's a huge step up, but it's still not equal to a min-day amount. Alternatively, that could included more vacation days, but I doubt that changed much. I'm looking forward to see what they did in terms of selecting vacation weeks, because right now that blows for anyone on the junior side of the scale. The vacation AIP also said this, "Additionally, the rate at which Delta pilots accrue additional weeks of vacation accelerates...." and this, ".....and the distribution of vacation weeks throughout the year will improve - with particular emphasis on increased vacation weeks being made available for bid in summer months When those on the junior side of the scale achieve additional longevity, they will also benefit from your quoted portion of the NN. |
Originally Posted by PilotWombat
(Post 3532056)
So, back to the Vacation AIP. The NC update said this:
In their At The Table 22-02, the showed some contract comparisons that included all of those carrier plus UPS and FedEx. With that, I think we can assume that the "value" is between the top of the passenger carriers and below the bottom cargo carriers. For a 6 year pilot, that's 93 hrs at Southwest and 105 at UPS. For a 20 year pilot, that's 155 hrs at Southwest and 175 at UPS. Take that by the 21 and 35 days of vacation respectively, and it sounds like they got something between 4.5 and 5 hours per day of vacation. That's a huge step up, but it's still not equal to a min-day amount. Alternatively, that could included more vacation days, but I doubt that changed much. I'm looking forward to see what they did in terms of selecting vacation weeks, because right now that blows for anyone on the junior side of the scale. |
Originally Posted by Roper92
(Post 3532068)
Frontier gets 5 hours a day FWIW. I’m not sure how accrual works over there, but I noticed they weren’t listed in that negotiations update.
year 1-9, 2 weeks year 10-19, 3 weeks year 20+, 4 weeks |
Keep in mind that when you are dealing with contracts the word substantially has a different meaning than you might think. 5% more than a competitor would be considered substantially more.
|
Originally Posted by Gundam
(Post 3531998)
You are arguing this to the wrong people. Obviously we are going to use whatever the company proclomation is to improve our position, whether it's accurate or just propaganda doesn't matter. If they sell the idea they gave a raise of x, we will ask for a raise of x at minimum. Pilots don't control FA rates, and the only use of the information for us is setting a floor for rate increases. No one here is blocking FAs from getting a larger raise, it would be helpful if you did actually since that only moves the floor higher.
|
Originally Posted by DALFA
(Post 3532077)
Understood. My point is that the company hasn't said that's what it is. They used multiple examples and one of them was 16% just like one of them was 4%. Is 16% possible? If you purposely fly the worst domestic trips in our bid packet yes. But this would be an exception, not the norm.
|
With IVDs, there is no reason you can’t carve out a sizeable summer vacation for yourself. I have been using my garbage vacation weeks and plopping them during the summer. Has worked great. They won’t get you holidays but my family summer vacations have not suffered. I hope IVDs stay codified or maybe even improved upon. They are great flexibility.
That said, I’m glad they are addressing the barren wasteland that is the summer vacation week availability. |
Originally Posted by PilotWombat
(Post 3532056)
So, back to the Vacation AIP. The NC update said this:
In their At The Table 22-02, the showed some contract comparisons that included all of those carrier plus UPS and FedEx. With that, I think we can assume that the "value" is between the top of the passenger carriers and below the bottom cargo carriers. For a 6 year pilot, that's 93 hrs at Southwest and 105 at UPS. For a 20 year pilot, that's 155 hrs at Southwest and 175 at UPS. Take that by the 21 and 35 days of vacation respectively, and it sounds like they got something between 4.5 and 5 hours per day of vacation. That's a huge step up, but it's still not equal to a min-day amount. Alternatively, that could included more vacation days, but I doubt that changed much. I'm looking forward to see what they did in terms of selecting vacation weeks, because right now that blows for anyone on the junior side of the scale. I would think the company would rather pay us more than give us more days off, but who knows… |
Originally Posted by DALFA
(Post 3532077)
Understood. My point is that the company hasn't said that's what it is. They used multiple examples and one of them was 16% just like one of them was 4%. Is 16% possible? If you purposely fly the worst domestic trips in our bid packet yes. But this would be an exception, not the norm.
|
One other thing that struck me from the NN:
“made significant progress on numerous secondary items in Section 3 – Compensation” Could “boarding pay” be included? “Establish Door Pay” was in our opener... That would be a massive gain, as domestic rotations would effectively add nearly an hour’s pay to ADG. |
Originally Posted by MJP27
(Post 3532101)
I implore you, please stop.
agreed.. let’s stay on topic. |
Originally Posted by Jaww
(Post 3532097)
With IVDs, there is no reason you can’t carve out a sizeable summer vacation for yourself. I have been using my garbage vacation weeks and plopping them during the summer. Has worked great. They won’t get you holidays but my family summer vacations have not suffered. I hope IVDs stay codified or maybe even improved upon. They are great flexibility.
That said, I’m glad they are addressing the barren wasteland that is the summer vacation week availability. I'm looking forward to the details of the vacation aip. |
Originally Posted by FangsF15
(Post 3532103)
One other thing that struck me from the NN:
“made significant progress on numerous secondary items in Section 3 – Compensation” Could “boarding pay” be included? “Establish Door Pay” was in our opener... That would be a massive gain, as domestic rotations would effectively add nearly an hour’s pay to ADG. |
Originally Posted by brakechatter
(Post 3532066)
The vacation AIP also said this, "Additionally, the rate at which Delta pilots accrue additional weeks of vacation accelerates...." and this, ".....and the distribution of vacation weeks throughout the year will improve - with particular emphasis on increased vacation weeks being made available for bid in summer months
When those on the junior side of the scale achieve additional longevity, they will also benefit from your quoted portion of the NN. They could add ONE additional week in summer months and it would be compliant with this AIP, yet still be essentially no change. Devil is in the details. Hopefully there are defined metrics in the final language forcing an even distribution throughout the year. Regarding “value” of vacation, I think it’s important to have some definition around what constitutes “value.” Is it hours PAID per vacation day or hours “CREDIT” per day? I genuinely don’t know enough about how other carriers’ vacation credits work, it it would be nice to know how the calculations were made when comparing to ensure an apples to apples comp. My opinion is that higher credit per day and more even annual distribution is higher priority to maximize vacation “value.” |
Originally Posted by StartngOvr
(Post 3532124)
They could add ONE additional week in summer months and it would be compliant with this AIP, yet still be essentially no change. Devil is in the details. Hopefully there are defined metrics in the final language forcing an even distribution throughout the year.
Regarding “value” of vacation, I think it’s important to have some definition around what constitutes “value.” Is it hours PAID per vacation day or hours “CREDIT” per day? I genuinely don’t know enough about how other carriers’ vacation credits work, it it would be nice to know how the calculations were made when comparing to ensure an apples to apples comp. My opinion is that higher credit per day and more even annual distribution is higher priority to maximize vacation “value.” |
Originally Posted by FangsF15
(Post 3532103)
One other thing that struck me from the NN:
“made significant progress on numerous secondary items in Section 3 – Compensation” Could “boarding pay” be included? “Establish Door Pay” was in our opener... That would be a massive gain, as domestic rotations would effectively add nearly an hour’s pay to ADG. |
Originally Posted by sailingfun
(Post 3532148)
It could be international pay, ground deadhead, night pay, Per Diem ect.. If they establish door pay look for them to mitigate it somewhat with a change in procedures on when the door is closed.
|
Originally Posted by Bottlen0se
(Post 3532152)
Wouldn’t be surprised if Holiday pay is established
|
Originally Posted by FangsF15
(Post 3532103)
One other thing that struck me from the NN:
“made significant progress on numerous secondary items in Section 3 – Compensation” Could “boarding pay” be included? “Establish Door Pay” was in our opener... That would be a massive gain, as domestic rotations would effectively add nearly an hour’s pay to ADG. |
Originally Posted by sailingfun
(Post 3532148)
It could be international pay, ground deadhead, night pay, Per Diem ect.. If they establish door pay look for them to mitigate it somewhat with a change in procedures on when the door is closed.
|
Originally Posted by StartngOvr
(Post 3532124)
They could add ONE additional week in summer months and it would be compliant with this AIP, yet still be essentially no change. Devil is in the details. Hopefully there are defined metrics in the final language forcing an even distribution throughout the year.
Regarding “value” of vacation, I think it’s important to have some definition around what constitutes “value.” Is it hours PAID per vacation day or hours “CREDIT” per day? I genuinely don’t know enough about how other carriers’ vacation credits work, it it would be nice to know how the calculations were made when comparing to ensure an apples to apples comp. My opinion is that higher credit per day and more even annual distribution is higher priority to maximize vacation “value.” |
Originally Posted by Bottlen0se
(Post 3532152)
Wouldn’t be surprised if Holiday pay is established
|
Originally Posted by sailingfun
(Post 3532148)
It could be international pay, ground deadhead, night pay, Per Diem ect.. If they establish door pay look for them to mitigate it somewhat with a change in procedures on when the door is closed.
|
Originally Posted by notEnuf
(Post 3532190)
I heard we are expanding "leave when ready." Are you saying they would roll that back?
|
Originally Posted by sailingfun
(Post 3532265)
They would likely try and time door closure more closely with actual push be it early or late. If they know there is a 30 minute wait for deice they will leave the door open. Much like they track out time to aircraft movement they might start tracking door closure to push.
|
Originally Posted by waldo135
(Post 3532301)
They already do this with the push not to release brakes (the out trigger) until actually cleared to push and ready to move.
|
Originally Posted by brakechatter
(Post 3532217)
Trying to understand your point. Vacation is pay/no credit right now in the contract, for the purposes of line construction and green slip trigger, vacation value is considered pay and credit. I don’t see vacation changing to pay and credit in all aspects of the contract, but I do t know the details of what has been agreed upon.
Yes, my point was in the context of credit towards line construction window or prorating reserve guarantee. Thinking out loud in the context of earlier rumors to this effect. I didn’t mean to imply pay and credit in a time card sense. I see now that wasn’t clear. |
Originally Posted by FangsF15
(Post 3532103)
One other thing that struck me from the NN:
“made significant progress on numerous secondary items in Section 3 – Compensation” Could “boarding pay” be included? “Establish Door Pay” was in our opener... That would be a massive gain, as domestic rotations would effectively add nearly an hour’s pay to ADG. |
"Door pay" or "preflight pay" - whatever. It's 10 minutes of punching buttons 99% of the time for the planes that don't have a half dozen MCO's.
It's 100% old school big union style featherbedding. That's fine. |
Originally Posted by fishforfun
(Post 3531673)
Thats not completely honest. Did they provide specific numbers? No, of course not. But the overall tone is very different from previous updates and that says a lot.
|
Originally Posted by DeltaboundRedux
(Post 3532404)
"Door pay" or "preflight pay" - whatever. It's 10 minutes of punching buttons 99% of the time for the planes that don't have a half dozen MCO's.
It's 100% old school big union style featherbedding. That's fine. Don’t sell our profession short, or..better yet, don’t do such a ****!y job that your ‘all set ready to go’..after pushing buttons for ten minutes. |
Not DL, NK, just MO.
Pay should start 30 minutes prior to scheduled departure time, and end 15 minutes after actual/scheduled arrival time, whichever is later, on a per leg basis. Will never pass because WB doesn’t fly a lot of legs. But still way better than what we have now. |
Originally Posted by p3flteng
(Post 3533198)
I guess you sign that release having read the notams, checked the weather, briefed the FA, inspected the exterior or loaded the box…or the myriad of other tasks that we do to be properly ready all in ten minutes.
Don’t sell our profession short, or..better yet, don’t do such a ****!y job that your ‘all set ready to go’..after pushing buttons for ten minutes. Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk |
Originally Posted by Trip7
(Post 3533228)
No it's you that's selling the profession short. Preflight pay is built into our hourly rate. That's why we always have to explain to the general public when they hear we make ie $200/hr. There is no need to start Mikey mouse pay add-ons like boarding pay because you're jealous of the FAs.
Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk |
Originally Posted by Trip7
(Post 3533228)
No it's you that's selling the profession short. Preflight pay is built into our hourly rate. That's why we always have to explain to the general public when they hear we make ie $200/hr. There is no need to start Mikey mouse pay add-ons like boarding pay because you're jealous of the FAs.
Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk |
Originally Posted by Trip7
(Post 3533228)
No it's you that's selling the profession short. Preflight pay is built into our hourly rate. That's why we always have to explain to the general public when they hear we make ie $200/hr. There is no need to start Mikey mouse pay add-ons like boarding pay because you're jealous of the FAs.
Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk |
Originally Posted by Trip7
(Post 3533228)
No it's you that's selling the profession short. Preflight pay is built into our hourly rate. That's why we always have to explain to the general public when they hear we make ie $200/hr. There is no need to start Mikey mouse pay add-ons like boarding pay because you're jealous of the FAs.
Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk
Originally Posted by CX500T
(Post 3533253)
It's baked in, but even on the SAME FLEET, I can do 4x preflights/postflghts a day, or 2 in a 6 day window. (4 leg Rat Express ATL-MCO-ATL-MCO, or JFK-ACC/DSS)
Got some old contract or negotiator notes from a previous PWA you can point to? Not trying to be a smart-arse...I just prefer to read it from the black and white source....trust but verify kind of thing. |
Baked in as it's historically been this way for almost 100 years.
Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk |
Originally Posted by Trip7
(Post 3533228)
No it's you that's selling the profession short. Preflight pay is built into our hourly rate. That's why we always have to explain to the general public when they hear we make ie $200/hr. There is no need to start Mikey mouse pay add-ons like boarding pay because you're jealous of the FAs.
Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk |
Originally Posted by p3flteng
(Post 3533198)
I guess you sign that release having read the notams, checked the weather, briefed the FA, inspected the exterior or loaded the box…or the myriad of other tasks that we do to be properly ready all in ten minutes.
Don’t sell our profession short, or..better yet, don’t do such a ****!y job that your ‘all set ready to go’..after pushing buttons for ten minutes. Maybe I'm too thorough :confused: |
| All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:00 AM. |
Website Copyright © 2026 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands