This is exactly the point. It's not like we aren't getting ANY retro. We are getting MOSTLY retro. I'm not willing to send this back for a year JUST to get a few percent retro and a few percent pay. If, after going to a roadshow and reading all the material, the rest of this is full of holes, the lack of full retro could be one of the nails. But getting 90% retro, in itself, isn't a deal breaker.

 

The worst economic times? So what is your excuse for them when we hit the amendable date coming off the most profitable year ever and they wouldn’t even show up to negotiate with us???

2020–When a few billion in govt cheese was handed out to them, and they had people retiring and on leaves of absence? The whole Covid side show was the great reset. We would still have some -88s flying today if that never happened. It was a great reset for DL. Gave them a chance to do what they wanted to do over the next decade in a matter of months. Look at us now…. Predicting $5B+ profit in 2023. My how the economic tide has turned.

I digress. The point is. This is not retro. They will owe me for Jan 2023 alone more than my 4% number will be for 2020. I also agree on it sucking being non pensionable.

 

For the sake of PS I’d love to see that predicted profit actually achieved. However tech companies laying off tens of thousands and this is just the beginning. 2 more years of the current administration. More rate hikes coming.

 

Good question.

And let's not forget that little Black Swan pandemic which froze the world and our negotiations for over a year while we were sucking on government teet.

One side of the table would state: "Well, if you had agreed to our ask in 2019 we would have had a deal. Therefore we should be receiving retro."

The other side of the table would state: "Well, your ask was so astronomical there was no way we could agree to it, so why should you be receiving retro?"

So now, the pertinent question is: "How close is this TA to our ask?"

 

Or walked up the jetway to see former NYC CP PK standing there with rotation in hand. Damn the retiring of the 727 and the easy aft stair exit trick.

 

Oh good. Never miss an opportunity to inject irrelevant politics into a discussion

 

I'll take a shot at it. Yes, the worst economic times. Far worse than 9/11, whether manufactured, overhyped, or legit. Although eventually payroll got support from the government, the losses were still very ugly. Through my conversations, the mediator was very sympathetic to that, and I do know that there was a year where there was no negotiating, not sure how anyone expects substantial retro during that year, expects the Company to fork it over, or expects the mediator to be sympathetic to full retro during that time. I was pretty surprised to see that it was that much, frankly. But I digress and agree that the Company cannot be rewarded for delay. Don't mistake this paragraph as sympathetic toward the Company, I am not.

So did we reward them. It's debatable, IMO. <opinion only> When we opened in early 2019, our ask was aggressive, very aggressive. We still had some "old school" leadership at the time. We had a very aggressive MEC and NC. IMO, the Company didn't know what to do with us. You've heard the term "new day, new airplane" that's what the Company faced, and IMO, they shut down and filed for mediation 9 months later, which plodded along very slowly. Almost immediately came COVID, and the Company ran to their old playbook and wanted pretty drastic concessions. We played them the same card and shut it down, repeatedly. Had they been reasonable in their requests, there might have been a more sympathetic ear from the union, but I doubt it. New Company upper level leadership leadership arrived and decided to maybe start finding some reasonable solutions with the union, and we got some really decent deals, especially considering that losses were still extremely high. Yadda, yadda, yadda we have a TA. The point is two-fold: there was no negotiating (by mutual agreement) for a year and we didn't really "counter" when presented with what we perceived as a non-starter. Why would we expect anything else from the Company? Again, don't misunderstand. I believe we have shifted the paradigm with regard to negotiating here at Delta regarding concessions, and it was like pulling teeth to do it. Thank goodness the MEC stood fast as a whole, because the message to the Company is that we no longer just give up stuff to get stuff.

I wish retro/bonus was higher as well, but I don't consider it a "reward" to the Company for delaying negotiations. IMO, the Company has gone out on a limb in writing this TA check, and as long as the rest of the industry matches or gets close to it then there is no harm, no foul from a management perspective. I think that we all know the track record of our fellow pilot groups with regard to pattern bargaining. I have challenged our new leadership at national to keep those groups close and offer whatever assistance is needed, ALPA or non-ALPA. I think it is pretty important that they all get close, and preferably leap past.

There were a lot of lessons learned during this negotiation, and I hope they endure. There is a appropriate place for bookend negotiating, sometimes you have to be satisfied with a tie, and sometimes you just have to plant a flag at your position and ride it. I believe that we have done all three in this negotiating cycle, and it has been very successful.

All IMO

 

You’re correct, I missed the 200% part. I thought I’d read that silver slips paid 150% if they were designated premium in the bid pack (not sure where I read/heard that, but it was before the full language came out).

I’m not mad about silver slips, but I DO want to know WHO asked for them. Us, or the company? Nobody has been able to answer this. If it was the company, I wonder if this is part of an overall strategy to reduce the number of payback days they have to give out.

Silver slips don’t generate payback days. VAS doesn’t generate payback days. If SS and VAS are used in lieu of GS (not saying this is the case, I truly have no idea), then the company has successfully reduced payback days, which allows them to maintain less staffing. And aren’t payback days supposed to be the mechanism which prevents the company from running lean?

Also, the company absolutely WOULD throw a sh*t fit if people stopped picking up green slips. The operation would absolutely fall apart. Are you denying that? Yeah, green slips are voluntary, except we’d be sued by the company if we exercised our right to not pick them up. Sounds super voluntary to me.

As far as VAS goes, again I ask, who wanted this? Us, or the company? If the company wanted it, I do want to know why.

I’m not saying that VAS is part of a grand scheme by the company to get us to one day have involuntary airport standby, but when I juxtapose the voluntary-ness of picking up green slips by the pilot group as a whole with VAS, it doesn’t seem a far stretch to think that someday the same thing could happen with VAS.

At the end of the day, I don’t care about green slips, payback days, silver slips, or VAS. By personal choice (mostly laziness), I don’t pick up white slips or green slips. I manage my finances in such a way that I don’t need or want extra income that comes with being gone even more than I already am. I also don’t care that people can or will pick them up, no sweat off my back.

However, what I DO care about is what the effect on staffing these things have. I wish the company were staffed in such a way that green slips and white slips were a total rarity, because that would mean that we’d have adequate reserve coverage and my schedule flexibility would be increased. As it is, I have almost zero schedule flexibility because reserve staffing is always black (and yes I do understand bad day/worse day).

I’m not saying these things as a reason to vote no on the contract (I’m still undecided, but 95% sure I’ll vote yes), I just want to know WHY these new things are being introduced to the contract. I want to know what impact they’ll have on staffing, because that does affect my life, even if I don’t pick up extra work.

I don’t think these things are bad in and of themselves, or a reason to vote no, but I think it’s important to closely examine the ramifications of adding things to the contract. To go in eyes wide open, as it were.

 

IMO, EB’s arrogant overstep in the national media probably cost Delta half a billion in costs over the life of this contract. They went out on a limb because they had to after the emperor was a big dummy.

 

I was leaning yes, until I read MOU 23-1 with the implementation times.

Yes, I know its normal, but these times are way too long, and if you've been around like me, you probably don't have any good faith left in the company.

I see we are still arguing over pay rates and retro, which is fine, but Im mostly a QOL "person". Some of these aren't hard, at all...

Crew meals 8/23
Vacation slide 4/24
6ivds - 7/23
Deadhead seat selection-1/24
Literally every single scheduling improvement for trip mix, FDP, etc - 8/23
Automated sick calls - 3/24
Training sked preferences - 3/25... 2025!
Short calls via pbs - 3/25
Via PCS - 3/24
Pilot x day swap board - 3/25
Reroute rules and pay - 8/23
Premium on call days - 3/24
Jetway trades - 3/25
Silver slips - 3/24
VAS - 11/23