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Old 01-23-2024, 10:16 AM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by Schwanker View Post
c2012 was a crap deal but ALPA was obsessed with payrates.

- we gave up profit sharing for payrates
- we gave up jobs for payrates
- we caved on scope for payrates; we had reps claiming company would re-engine the CRJ200s if we didn't cave on scope

now we have less profit sharing, less jobs and more large RJs. Oh, and our payrates are the same as the others. Brilliant!
I never once saw anyone at the union claim the company would reengined the 200's. There was no reengined option available or under development. Many of the 200's were coming up on engine overhauls but those were easily available just like any other aircraft in our fleet.

Here is specifically what the union put out.
The provisions permit the Company to negotiate with the DCI carriers and aircraft suppliers to replace 50-seat aircraft with 76-seat aircraft on approximately a 3- for-1 basis. Absent that ability, the Company will be obligated to expend significant amounts to perform required maintenance on, and to continue to fly the 50-seat aircraft. Without the reduction in small jet capacity, they have no need to add mainline capacity.

Last edited by sailingfun; 01-23-2024 at 10:45 AM.
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Old 01-23-2024, 10:51 AM
  #122  
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Originally Posted by FangsF15 View Post
Good explaination. I’d say the reason it went unnoticed is the same reason it was asked in the first place, and has taken quite a few posts to illustrate. The implications not inherently obvious…
It certainly did not go unnoticed at the roadshow I attended and all the union publications. Here is a summary.
Note that the July and August bid periods will now each be 30-day bid periods. This will have the effect of reducing the difference in flying between peak and non-peak months to an average of 19%. (The start and/or end dates of a bid period during other times of the year may be altered by mutual agreement between the Director – Crew Resources and the MEC Scheduling Committee Chairman. Any such change will always be made known well in advance of initial line bidding for that bid period.)
The second piece of the solution is to widen the ALV range by two hours to increase the amount of flex within a category. The range will be increased from 72:00 – 82:00 to 72:00 – 84:00. This results in a 17% difference and will allow for more consistent staffing and reserve levels throughout the year. Correspondingly, the allowable TLV range, which is a rolling 12-month average of the ALV, will be raised from 74:00 – 79:00 to 75:00 – 80:00.
Put another way, the bid period changes reduce the gap between summer and winter flying from 22% to 19%, and the ALV/TLV changes further reduce the gap to 17%.
These changes will likely result in a contractual staffing reduction of approximately 300 pilots.


There were numerous trades in contract 2012. Some good for us and some bad for us. Overall the contract was job neutral. Here is a summary of the contract. Some items were quite significant for a large groups of pilots especially reserves. Reserve got a large pay boost(over 20% at amendable date) and better work rules. The changes in disability alone put 100,000 in my pocket and much more for pilots not able to return to work.

Under the expedited process and after two months of negotiations, an agreement on an amended PWA was reached seven months prior to the amendable date.
hhAllows the company to take delivery of additional 76-seat aircraft when the company takes delivery of additional B-717 aircraft
hhEstablished hard overall cap of 450 Delta Connection aircraft (including large turboprops) when the company takes delivery of additional 76-seat aircraft
hhEstablished minimum required ratio of flying between mainline and Delta Connection
hhEliminated conversion of 70-seat aircraft to 76-seat aircraft based on mainline growth
hhAlitalia added to the AF/KLM JV after joining the JV in 2010
hhEstablished tighter restrictions on the number of Delta passengers allowed to fly
on codeshare partners
hhImproved foreign ownership protection hhImproved seniority list instructor language hhExpanded and improved furlough protections
hhPay:
yh4% increase in hourly rates on July 1, 2012 (6 months prior to amendable date) yh8.5% increase in hourly rates on January 1, 2013
yh3% increase in hourly rates on January 1, 2014
yh3% increase in hourly rates on January 1, 2015
hhCQ and distributed training pay increased
hhVacation pay increased
hhInternational pay increased
hhPer diem increased
hhDC contribution increased
hhProfit sharing reduced to a 10% payout of pretax income up to $2.5B to offset the first year pay raise
hhReserve guarantee and number of awarded X-days increased, along with max reserve
hhIncreased yearly sick credit to 270 hours for pilots with 20-plus years of service hhDeleted the 75% pay provision for sick leave
hhPlaced restrictions of when a pilot may be required to verify their sickness hhHotel, laundry, and relocation benefits improved
hhDelta Pilots Medical Plan improved
hhDisability benefits improved
hhALV window increased from 72–82 to 72–84
hhChanged summer month bid period dates
hhPBS staffing formula improved
hhEstablished early retirement program
hhIntroduced a new rig—average daily guarantee (ADG) of 4:30

The Key to contract 2012 was it broke the logjam of contracts at all the airlines mired in bankruptcy language.

When discussing overall pilot productivity after contract 2018 we were back to almost exactly the same block hours per pilot as pre chapter 11. We clawed back a lot over 11 years and set the industry standard on every contract.

Last edited by sailingfun; 01-23-2024 at 11:04 AM.
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Old 01-23-2024, 11:07 AM
  #123  
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Originally Posted by Scoop View Post
The simple answer is the company can operate with less Pilots.

This is not very intuitive at first and thats probably why it went mostly unnoticed during the C-12 contract while we fiercly argued over a lot of less consequential items.

I will try (and probably fail) to make it clear with a simplification and some notional numbers. Remember for the most part staffing for each month is mostly totally independent, and the airline will staff for the most demanding months since we don't have seasonal furloughs.

Lets say an airline averages 1000 hours a day over the year. That would be 30 or 31 thousand hours for most months. Not a big deal, the airline staffs for 31,000 hours and it works pretty well. But lets say the airline flies 1200 hours per day in July and August and 800 in January and February. Well now the airline has to staff for 31x1200 or 37,200 hours for July and August. By moving flying to June and September which in our example need to cover 30,000 hours the July and August staffing requirement gets reduced to 30x1200, which is 36,000 hours. June and September is increased but only to 31,000 hours. In this example the company reduces the most demanding staffing requirment from 37,200 to 36,000 hours or a saving of 1200 hours which is about a 3.3% savings.

Remember this is a simplification to explain the mechanics of whats going on. In reality the flying differential is probably greater from the demanding months to the slowest months which makes this more important for the company. The company also has other methods for mitigating this such as varying the ALV, putting instructors on the line, greatly and I do mean greatly, minimizing vacation weeks it July and August etc.

But the important point here is that regardless of company mitigation used in reducing from 31 to 30 days on the most demanding staffing periods the company achieves an immediate 3.3% staffing efficiency.

I don't really remember this being discussed much until after C-12. I'm sure DALPA monetized it for our side of the ledger but for some reason it never gained much traction as a discussion item during the roadshows etc.

Scoop
Appreciate the write up, this does explain it well. Now I'm low key mad my previous employer did 13 28 day bids. Seemed so nice and organized at face value and yet we were likely getting screwed and didn't even know it.
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Old 01-23-2024, 11:16 AM
  #124  
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Originally Posted by Meme In Command View Post
Appreciate the write up, this does explain it well. Now I'm low key mad my previous employer did 13 28 day bids. Seemed so nice and organized at face value and yet we were likely getting screwed and didn't even know it.
It would depend on your monthly maximum line values. If you were in the same range as 12 bid period airlines you were getting screwed. If less it might have been fine.
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Old 01-23-2024, 12:29 PM
  #125  
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Originally Posted by sailingfun View Post
It certainly did not go unnoticed at the roadshow I attended and all the union publications. Here is a summary.
Okay, poor word choice. “Under appreciated” would have been better. The tough part is that there is potentially just enough flies in the ointment so as not to earn 50%+1 “no” votes.

Which is why NC direction is absolutely critical. Those flies have to be dug out in the turns at the table. The next LEC elections in each council will decide the folks giving that direction. We need to be absolutely certain “we” have kicked the tires on all the candidates.

Originally Posted by Meme In Command View Post
Appreciate the write up, this does explain it well. Now I'm low key mad my previous employer did 13 28 day bids. Seemed so nice and organized at face value and yet we were likely getting screwed and didn't even know it.
Dunning-Kruger effect right there…
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Old 01-23-2024, 01:34 PM
  #126  
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Great info Sailing. One thing to remember about C2012 was that yes while looking back in may seem pretty weak, but at the time it was a vast improvement over what we had recently been operating under. Specifically LOA 46, LOA 51, and the first Joint Contract - Turds all. Does anyone remember 10.5 hour 3 day trips? Vacation days valued at 3 hours? I think 777A pay was also down to abut $190/hour. Let that sink in - Greenslip pay on the 777 was about equal to straight 7ER pay now. Unless that was during the brief time when GS's were reduced to 150% in which case a GS on the 777 was less than straight 73N pay now. Ouch! The list goes on.

C2012 started a string of improvments that resulted in our current PWA. It took 18 years but we have clawed back to mostly where we were pre BK. Some stuff is still lagging but some things now are vastly superior - reserve being one that stands out.

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