Originally Posted by zippinbye

Does anyone else think about the surface condition of the departure runway when you taxi out into the darkness at an airport where the tower is closed and no aircraft have operated for sometime? Even if there's been a departure ahead of you, there's no assurance that A/C didn't leave a "present" behind (think AF 4590). I didn't think of this via learning from a sage old captain nor any company policy, but a few decades ago I routinely did a crack-of-dawn departure at my regional out of a then-uncontrolled joint use airfield in TX, where big long runways might have T-38s running a tarffic pattern, but the smaller civie runway was greatly unused durng the night hours. I decided that going the long way to back taxi on a runway clearing pass was a prudent action. One morning it paid off; near the centerline at a point close to where we would normally rotate we discovered a separated retread from a realatively large aircraft, probably a C-130 if I had to guesss. Had we just taken the shortest path to the departure runway, pushed up the throttles and rolled, it would have been a factor. I was able to raise a USAF ground operations vehicle on guard and they came out to remove the FOD.

I was recently presented with a similar situation; late night, dark, with the tower closed something like two hours earlier. I started relating the above to my F/O when we got to threats on the briefing, and as my thoughts evolved I said "we'll back taxi to make sure everything is good." His response was "are you serious? Do you know how long that's going to take?" I indcated yes, and that it was an investment I was willing to make and one that Delta would support. I was somewhat taken aback that my rationale was met with resistence, so I laid out an alternative for him; pleaseget on CTAF or Guard and find some ground guys or ARFF to see if they'd do a sweep for us. He said "I don't think that's a "thing." To which I picked up the mic and called on CTAF "any airport operations vehicle on frequency, this is Delta xxx." Got an immediate and wiling response to my request - coordinated the timing to be just prior to our push. We got an all-clear and were on our way. The somewhat surprising cockpit dynamics with the F/O are a topic for another day. It was leg 2 of 2, and we seemed to have a good rapport - he was on the final lap before going to IQ for upgrade and seemed to be testing the authority waters early, so to speak. Plus, there was a commuter flight on his mind. Obviously using external resources to clear the runway is more practical and less expensive, but as pointed out by my F/O, it's not really an established, routine procedure.

It was all civil, but a bit strange to me. Am I out in left field for thinking a FOD scan is in order?

Originally Posted by hockeypilot44

I would be sitting in right seat thinking, “this guy is an idiot.” I’m upgrading due to stories like these. How long have you been an airline captain for? I’m guessing not very long.

Originally Posted by hockeypilot44

I would be sitting in right seat thinking, “this guy is an idiot.” I’m upgrading due to stories like these. How long have you been an airline captain for? I’m guessing not very long.

Unless I have a reason to suspect something on runway (reported bird strike or wildlife, etc.), I would assume runway is clear.

Originally Posted by zippinbye

Does anyone else think about the surface condition of the departure runway when you taxi out into the darkness at an airport where the tower is closed and no aircraft have operated for sometime? Even if there's been a departure ahead of you, there's no assurance that A/C didn't leave a "present" behind (think AF 4590). I didn't think of this via learning from a sage old captain nor any company policy, but a few decades ago I routinely did a crack-of-dawn departure at my regional out of a then-uncontrolled joint use airfield in TX, where big long runways might have T-38s running a tarffic pattern, but the smaller civie runway was greatly unused durng the night hours. I decided that going the long way to back taxi on a runway clearing pass was a prudent action. One morning it paid off; near the centerline at a point close to where we would normally rotate we discovered a separated retread from a realatively large aircraft, probably a C-130 if I had to guesss. Had we just taken the shortest path to the departure runway, pushed up the throttles and rolled, it would have been a factor. I was able to raise a USAF ground operations vehicle on guard and they came out to remove the FOD.

I was recently presented with a similar situation; late night, dark, with the tower closed something like two hours earlier. I started relating the above to my F/O when we got to threats on the briefing, and as my thoughts evolved I said "we'll back taxi to make sure everything is good." His response was "are you serious? Do you know how long that's going to take?" I indcated yes, and that it was an investment I was willing to make and one that Delta would support. I was somewhat taken aback that my rationale was met with resistence, so I laid out an alternative for him; pleaseget on CTAF or Guard and find some ground guys or ARFF to see if they'd do a sweep for us. He said "I don't think that's a "thing." To which I picked up the mic and called on CTAF "any airport operations vehicle on frequency, this is Delta xxx." Got an immediate and wiling response to my request - coordinated the timing to be just prior to our push. We got an all-clear and were on our way. The somewhat surprising cockpit dynamics with the F/O are a topic for another day. It was leg 2 of 2, and we seemed to have a good rapport - he was on the final lap before going to IQ for upgrade and seemed to be testing the authority waters early, so to speak. Plus, there was a commuter flight on his mind. Obviously using external resources to clear the runway is more practical and less expensive, but as pointed out by my F/O, it's not really an established, routine procedure.

It was all civil, but a bit strange to me. Am I out in left field for thinking a FOD scan is in order?

Originally Posted by m3113n1a1

I bet the FO is reading this thread right now feeling quite validated.

Originally Posted by OOfff

I love the “testing authority” accusation in there

Originally Posted by m3113n1a1

I would expect the FO to question you. What you're suggesting is highly abnormal and not a Delta procedure. The threat of FOD at night on an uncontrolled airport is probably much lower than the threat of a fully loaded airliner tooling around on an active runway for 10+ minutes squinting out the window looking for "FOD." GA aircraft operate in and out of those airports without making a single radio call.

When in doubt follow the FOM/AOM which says nothing about taxiing up and down the runway at night looking for FOD.

In my opinion, by making up procedures like that you're introducing MORE threats into the operation.

Originally Posted by Planetrain

Airports that have part 121 ops have an Airport Certification Manual that outline what the FSDO and the operator have agreed upon for surface inspections. It will be different for different sized airports. Here’s an AC that outlines what those inspections might look like:

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/...ection_rev.pdf

4-1-1 talks about schedule.
The last few pages show sample logs of what they check.

Just because tower is closed doesn’t mean airport ops hasn’t already done a surface inspection. Happens all the time eg in winter ops and you can see it in the airport remarks on your flight plan with runway condition codes and remarks.

I think the Concorde was taken out by a metal strip 12”x2”. What are the chances you notice this from the cockpit at 5:50 am in dimly lit/dark conditions?

Originally Posted by jaxsurf

I’m on the FOs side. This is bizarre and I would feel INCREDIBLY uncomfortable being on an uncontrolled active runway for that length of time.

Seems like a far riskier proposition than the possibility of there being FOD on the runway.

Originally Posted by OOfff

I love the “testing authority” accusation in there