You're not fuel critical on the ground.

 

Are you that obtuse?

 

RU?

You doing this in flight? "so fuel critical that I need to shut down"

 

I saw this a lot back on the 88 with the late 80s and 90s hire CAs. Most who did this actually had no clue about fuel planning, or assessing and understanding what they actually had in-flight. They could not make contingency plans to save their life, all they knew was to be overloaded with “slop”.

They talked a big game but never knew what they were doing. Hopefully most are gone.

 

I dont look at destination fob anymore or have a min fuel I want to land with.

I just want to monitor the extra fuel and have a min extra to land with. That works way better. Extra at 6k and I formulate a plan, 4k probably same plan with less play, 2k plan is different plan,1k is really clear cut plan and 0 we are done. And you can always divert before its 0.

 

THIS! Lots of pilots who complain about fuel also have a poor understanding of performance. Plenty of 737 pilots think landing with less than 6.0 is risky. I was shocked when an instructor asked me what I felt comfortable landing with and he was trying to tell me never to land with less than 6.0. It's always embarrassing hearing a pilot get on their high horse with dispatch not realizing that in addition to there 45 minutes of reserve fuel, they also have 25 minutes of contingency fuel built into the flight plan. If you are going to some remote destination, than fine, but almost every airport we go to has plenty of regular service airports within 15 minutes of us at all times.

 

Of the four 737’s I flew all of them had a different burn hence a different min number. Your instructor had a point you should have a min number depending on the fleet your on. Worrying about whatever other BS that’s on the release is up to the end user. Never saw as many differing opinions like I have at Delta on how to fly the “jet”

 

We have 2. 4,000 lbs for a 900ER and 3,600 for the 800 (but actually that is variable and changes based on the flight plan).

No, the instructor did not have a point. 6,000 lbs is way more than 45 minutes. Personally, I don't like teaching "rules of thumb" as understanding the variables that affect actual fuel burns is more beneficial. Teaching 6.0 as the magic fuel number will cause people to treat time events as no-time events. I heard of a 737 flight that diverted to PHOG on its way into HNL because they were going to land with 5.0 if they continued to HNL. It's kind of silly to divert to an airport that is 2 minutes closer when you have more than FAR fuel reserves.

As I told the instructor, my minimum fuel load depends on the flight and can't be reduced to a single number I use all the time. The FAA already did that and came up with 45 minutes. THAT is the starting point. Feel free to add to that number for the actual conditions of the flight. I would rather Delta teach pilots to have reasons rather than a random number. Where do you think you will need that extra fuel? Before takeoff, in cruise, approach, or a possible go around and diversion? Extra time/options in those areas can all lead to different fuel numbers or even a different strategy than simply adding more fuel.

 

Delta teaches numbers over reasons because each pilot reasons differently as we’re doing right now. A good place to start is the ODM.

 

The buffer is to prevent from hitting the min or emer numbers for your particular aircraft. The fuel reserves you discuss above are based off of those. not many experienced captains like to flirt with that so they establish a number they have seen time and again tend to work out. Mostly this is for VFR type stuff at your destination.

You're also wrong about the 25 minutes ALWAYS for contingency fuel. Of the releases I just looked up on a certain NB fleet for today, showed on average of 15 minutes of contingency fuel being alloted. These were to destinations reporting VFR conditions.

Tell me, have you ever been going to JFK, then had to divert with your alternate listed as EWR? The straight line distance (what the flight planning program uses) from JFK to EWR is like 16NM. However, if you've ever done that divert, on a VFR day with VFR arrival fules (no ALT obvioulsy) I'll tell you that 45 minutes of reserve you bank on puts you at min fuel pretty quick. We've had crews do that divert, they've been vectored as far south as ACY before they were able to be sequenced into the flow (north flow EWR) and up into CT for getting sequenced into south flow at EWR. We've had several min/emergency fuel states in that scenario. Believe me the Captains of those flights learned pretty quick about what your instructor was wisely trying to impart on you.

Here's another one. Heading to florida in the summer. Dispatcher files you under exemption 10332. No Alt given. You know that it's FL and the summertime, so there's a good chance you might encounter some deviations and perhaps delays going to your destination. Having that buffer your LCP was talking to you about is just good smart aviating. Nothing more.

Yeah there may be airports within 15nm of you, but depending on where you are at, and given our planning software uses straight line distance (does not take into account the vectoring squiggy lines you end up really flying in the real world), you may find yourself quckly running out of options as you approach a low fule state (we call that min fuel here at Delta Air Lines).

What is minium fuel here at DAL? Min fuel is is enough to hold at 1500 AFE for 30 minutes (does not define a speed or configuration) and fly one approach. But what will you land with total fuel wise? Well you'd be well into an emergency fuel state I can gurantee you. Emergency fuel is ~30 minutes of fuel remaining until you flame out.

I would hope that if newer captains are reading your opinion here, they disregard it, and go with what their LCP's are giving them for gouge on their specific fleet. Those numbers are pretty solid and work well in the real world.

You do you though.