With payroll growing the percentage could be less but the dollar amount will be close to 2024.

For what it's worth.

I learn a fair amount from this thread.
It has added nothing of consequence to my knowledge regarding renewables, fossil fuels, non-renewable natural resources, or global warming/climate change.
It has, however, added to my understanding of the future for both this nation and industrial civilization.

Those commenting in the Majors board of APC tend to, as an aggregate, represent significantly above average levels of education and income. They belong to an economic class with above average political power and influence. Hence the comments herein offer a window as to what the USA, and hence to some degree the world, will do or not do relative to the subjects listed above.
For myself, that is worthwhile. (though admittedly the conclusions I draw are subjective)

If it is so dumb as to drain away your brain cells, then perhaps don't read it?

Man. I knew pilots were salty but yikes. This is APC I guess.

This is why it’s inaccurate to say FA’s or Cabin Cleaners getting PS doesn’t affect us. More employees dilutes the denominator, as we saw when we went from 80k to 100k employees after Covid. We’ll probably never see 16% PS again, unless the company outsources employee groups (like cabin cleaners).

more employees dilutes the profitability because of higher wages, but their ps does not affect our ps percentage of that profit. ours is still defined as x% of $y of ptix

Not quite…

Margins are still nowhere near recovered to what they were precovid. If they start to recover the higher PS percentages will be back in play.

PTIX in 2019 was very similar to 2024, both around $5B. The PS pool in 2015 was $1.5B and paid 21%, in 2019 was $1.6B and paid 16%, and in 2024 was $1.4B and paid 10%. How else do you explain the disparity if not for the difference in the number of employees, which is 25% higher in 2024 than 2015. 2019 was in the middle of the two.

pilot wages were higher in 2024 than 2015. the higher your wage, the smaller percentage of it is ps.

Well, we were about 12,500 in 2015 vs. 17,000+ in 2024. With increased pay rates, maybe pilot wage cost actually doubled in 10 years? I never thought we were stovepiped from the rest of the company, especially since we allllll get the same exact percent (well, other than in 2016 between C15's TA1 failure and TA2 passage).

Have to agree here. Public Napkin math time (with made up hypothetical numbers)

If profit sharing payout to, say, 17,000 pilots is from a pool of $500m:

If the average pay of pilots is $200,000/yr, the average payout is about $29,411, or 14.7%

If the average pay of pilots is $300,000/yr, the average payout is about $29,411, or 9.8%

The percentage varies substantially more if the number of pilots also changed.

That's exactly why it's paying less. We have more employees and in our case are making money so of course the same 5 Billion is leading to a lower percentage. I'm saying that if our margins recover we have a good chance at seeing those higher profit sharing percentages return. People are way too focused on the top end profit number. We are having to generate a lot more revenue to earn that same profit than we did before covid. The companies margin is what is holding us back right now, even if that's not what the PS payout is directly tied to.

Higher wages among other employees will reduce the PS payout percentage. The PWA defines a pool, but the portion of that pool paid out to pilots depends on your eligible wages and the eligible wages of all employees in the pilot plan and ground/fa plan.

So yes, higher wages reduces profit, but it also will decrease the % you receive as a pilot because you have a smaller share of all eligible wages.

We are not stovepiped. Our payout is absolutely effected by the wages of other employees.

We are in the sense that ours is guaranteed and yes segregated from all other employees. The effect is as all wages (including ours) grow the denominator grows while the numerator is set by profit which is roughly the same as last year. The dollar amount will be roughly the same as the wage numbers determine percent.

I think we are saying the same thing. Our plan is contractual and the method of calculation will be unchanged by any other plan that exists for the other employees. However, because total wages are a factor in the calculation, raises given to other employees will decrease our payout, both because of the reduced total profit and because of the larger wage base.

Hypothetically, 2 years with identical $5B PTIX, but in the second year the non contract employees got a 10% raise, would result in a lower payout percentage and dollar amount for the pilots.

the non-con wage base doesn’t change our payout except in how it reduces profitability.

pilot wages increasing decrease the percentage payout, but not dollar amount, though.

You are wrong. Read the PWA.

Non con wages go up, ps percentage goes down, for the same PTIX.

This is not correct.

the pool of PS pool is divided by all eligible wages, which is pretty much all us based employees wages. If we have a 1B PS pool and there are 10B in eligible wages, everyone gets a 10% PS payout. If DL gives the non cons a raise but the pilots don’t get one, and the wage base goes up to 10.5B, everyone’s PS% goes down to 9.5%

the pilot payout calculation is in the pwa, and defines our payout as a percentage of ptix. that noncons get matched does not affect that %/ptix calculation.

again, this is not correct.

the PWA lays this out in 3.I. The PS pool is determined by looking at DL’s PTIX, for all profit under 2.5B, 10% is added to the pool, for all profit over, 20% is added. Once the PS pool size is determined, that number is divided by the total wage base for all DL employees to determine the %. or looking at it another way, you are entitled to the same % of the PS pool as your earnings were of the total earnings pool.

If the wage base goes up, the PS% goes down. FAs and ground based employees are factored into the wage base.

“ individual employee’s annual compensation in the year in which the PTIX was earned as a percentage of total annual compensation for that year for all employees eligible for (a) the Delta Air Lines, Inc. annual profit-sharing plan or (b) the Delta Air Lines, Inc. Annual profit-sharing plan for ground and flight attendant employees”

that’s right out of the PWA, it includes everyone eligible for management bonuses and FA’s and ground based employees in the wage base calculation.

i appreciate the correction, and apologize if i misled anyone with my poor understanding

lol don’t worry people have been arguing over this every year around February.

We get profit sharing off our bonus last year too right?

(No we dont just getting the question out of the way now since people are gonna ask)

perdiem amounts go into my wages for profit sharing too right?

My wife gave me a 1000 in cash, i get profit sharing off that too right?

If we shut down every repetitive or glaringly obvious question, there'd be nothing left on the internet but porn.

that's the only thing the internet is for.

Said another way, if the noncons did not get PS at all, their portion of the pool would be divided amongst the pilots.

In this way, there is zero reason for the company NOT to extend the “right thing to do” to the whole “family”. They have to pay the exact same pool regardless of who/how many gets it due to the PWA. If I’m management, it makes me look super magnanimous even though my (mgmt) cost is unaffected.

I never thought of it that way, but it makes total sense.

if they excluded the non cons, our PS last year would have been closer to 25% (assuming we are about 40% of total payroll)

Why does the PWA include other work groups? It should be written that this PS pool is just for pilots!

Violent agreement with you there.

If the non cons didn’t get PS, their portion of the pool would just not be distributed. It does not go to the pilots.

With the calculation based on total wages, only a portion of “our” pool actually goes to us.

For some rough numbers, assume a pool of 1 billion. If non con wages are 40% of the base, and pilot wages are 60% of the base, pilots get 600 million and the others get 400 million. If the company terminated the non con plan, they get nothing and we still get 600 million.

It was done this way when there were two different plans, they ran two different calculations and not all of the pool as defined in the PWA was distributed.

California’s electrical grid has gotten significantly more reliable due to, you guessed it, battery storage.

https://apple.news/AG8jArsR_QAGx_gEcSDYlcw

Everytime I want out you jackals pull me back in....ok so since 1880s then. Rock isn't underwater even at a king tide. When was the industrial revolution?

From CAISO - no bias there. They had a mild summer. Let's wait to the "atmospheric rivers" hit them this winter. See how stable it is then.

Your power grid is a basket case. Just build conventional power generation and be done with it.

https://apnews.com/article/fact-chec...l-924629756946

https://www.reuters.com/article/fact...idUSL1N2YO1O0/

We have real data BTW... from the .gov
https://coast.noaa.gov/digitalcoast/

https://www.boston.com/news/local-ne...g-a-king-tide/


literally the first search result

Ooooooowwwww. The fact checkers. Whatever, Like they've been right before. Not.

I'm just telling you what I saw. And what the locals there see. Every day. Day in and day out. For decades on end.

What remains is this - the Cali power grid is a wreck. There is no anthropological global warming.

Said by a guy with an amateur level, at best, knowledge about anything weather. Hey, you have to turn on your airplane radar occasionally so you definitely know.

Imagine if someone came up to you and said, "I play flight sim sometimes. You obviously have no idea what you're doing and shouldn't even be employed at this airline."

imagine being this unable to admit you were wrong

You know that if Texas was a blue state, he wouldn't shut up about the Blizzard power outage of 2021