Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
05-26-2012, 09:08 AM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
What I mean is that in the final stages of negotiations, we weren't arguing about $100 million or $50 million, we were arguing about a few million or a 1/5% raise. Imagine having 350 different turns in a house negotiation. Those last ten turns you are arguing about the drapes and the ceiling fan, not whether the price of the house is going to be $500,000 or $400,000.
I understand for pilots, they see the deal for the first time and they may assume it is the first offer. If you take the first offer then maybe there is another 10 or 15% left on the table. After the 350th offer, there is not 10 or 15% left on the table, there are crumbs. You pick up whatever crumbs you have and then go find out if the MEC and the pilots want to take the deal.
Take it or leave it, that's your choice. But don't reject it thinking there are anything else but crumbs left on the table. Richard Anderson is a good boss but he is a very hard man. If you haven't met him you will find that out very quickly when you do. If someone thinks he will start crying and fork over gobs of money with a rejected TA, then you have never met him. He has already formulated the plan to follow if there is no deal and he will execute that plan. From his viewpoint, Delta pilots already cost more per block hour than any other pilot group so he is more than ready to wait for some other pilot group to raise that bar.
He views his major competition as United. Right now Delta pilots make about $40,000 to $50,000 more than they do and have better work rules and worse productivity. That is how he views us. If we can add value to Delta then we will be rewarded. Don't add value and there is no reason to reward us. That is capitalism at its most raw form.
I understand for pilots, they see the deal for the first time and they may assume it is the first offer. If you take the first offer then maybe there is another 10 or 15% left on the table. After the 350th offer, there is not 10 or 15% left on the table, there are crumbs. You pick up whatever crumbs you have and then go find out if the MEC and the pilots want to take the deal.
Take it or leave it, that's your choice. But don't reject it thinking there are anything else but crumbs left on the table. Richard Anderson is a good boss but he is a very hard man. If you haven't met him you will find that out very quickly when you do. If someone thinks he will start crying and fork over gobs of money with a rejected TA, then you have never met him. He has already formulated the plan to follow if there is no deal and he will execute that plan. From his viewpoint, Delta pilots already cost more per block hour than any other pilot group so he is more than ready to wait for some other pilot group to raise that bar.
He views his major competition as United. Right now Delta pilots make about $40,000 to $50,000 more than they do and have better work rules and worse productivity. That is how he views us. If we can add value to Delta then we will be rewarded. Don't add value and there is no reason to reward us. That is capitalism at its most raw form.
Unbelievable. Delta really IS a non-union airline. This is proof.
Carl
05-26-2012, 09:08 AM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Originally Posted by CVG767A
The 50 seat RJs aren't going away nearly quickly enough, because Delta is locked into long-term contracts to operate them. I would guess it's cheaper to fly them at a loss than to buy out the contracts. Giving those regional airlines the 76 seaters is what would free us from the 50 seater contracts.
The best thing to keep RJs in check is a viable small narrow body aircraft. This TA gives Delta an incentive to buy those aircraft.
The best thing to keep RJs in check is a viable small narrow body aircraft. This TA gives Delta an incentive to buy those aircraft.
DAL is already in the process of moving 50 seaters to Bankrupt Pinnacle to send the planes back to Canadair as Pinnacle is sacrificed on the alter of Comair.
If the TA passes, DAL pilots will have sentanced themselves to:
3 more years more of bankruptcy wages corrected for inflation...
significant loss of bargaining power due to the outsourcing of the equivalent of TWO more Compass sized airlines....
The exemption of RAH from the rules, a known - dont play by the rules airline...
More open flank Alaska airlines flying
05-26-2012, 09:09 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Boeing Hearing and Ergonomics Lab Rat, Night Shift
Posts: 1,724
I think the MEC did us a service by sending this TA to the Delta pilots.
The process isn't broken, it is alive and well.
What is broken is having some on the MEC selling this TA on the basis of fear.
Fear is a terrible reason to vote YES on.
I agree that the road to self-help is lengthy and not that lily to produce superior results.
Ironically we have something better and quicker. Rejecting this TA is the most powerful thing the Delta pilots can do at this point. The timeline is in days...
Who really has the time-value-money problem? The company or the pilots?
If the pilots want to open early, do you think the company will say "sure" or will say "a contract is a contract?"
We have the ball and are about to fumble should we approve this TA...
The end zone is in sight, better put it down here - just in case...
Cheers
George
The process isn't broken, it is alive and well.
What is broken is having some on the MEC selling this TA on the basis of fear.
Fear is a terrible reason to vote YES on.
I agree that the road to self-help is lengthy and not that lily to produce superior results.
Ironically we have something better and quicker. Rejecting this TA is the most powerful thing the Delta pilots can do at this point. The timeline is in days...
Who really has the time-value-money problem? The company or the pilots?
If the pilots want to open early, do you think the company will say "sure" or will say "a contract is a contract?"
We have the ball and are about to fumble should we approve this TA...
The end zone is in sight, better put it down here - just in case...
Cheers
George
05-26-2012, 09:10 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
What I mean is that in the final stages of negotiations, we weren't arguing about $100 million or $50 million, we were arguing about a few million or a 1/5% raise. Imagine having 350 different turns in a house negotiation. Those last ten turns you are arguing about the drapes and the ceiling fan, not whether the price of the house is going to be $500,000 or $400,000.
I understand for pilots, they see the deal for the first time and they may assume it is the first offer. If you take the first offer then maybe there is another 10 or 15% left on the table. After the 350th offer, there is not 10 or 15% left on the table, there are crumbs. You pick up whatever crumbs you have and then go find out if the MEC and the pilots want to take the deal.
Take it or leave it, that's your choice. But don't reject it thinking there are anything else but crumbs left on the table. Richard Anderson is a good boss but he is a very hard man. If you haven't met him you will find that out very quickly when you do. If someone thinks he will start crying and fork over gobs of money with a rejected TA, then you have never met him. He has already formulated the plan to follow if there is no deal and he will execute that plan. From his viewpoint, Delta pilots already cost more per block hour than any other pilot group so he is more than ready to wait for some other pilot group to raise that bar.
He views his major competition as United. Right now Delta pilots make about $40,000 to $50,000 more than they do and have better work rules and worse productivity. That is how he views us. If we can add value to Delta then we will be rewarded. Don't add value and there is no reason to reward us. That is capitalism at its most raw form.
I understand for pilots, they see the deal for the first time and they may assume it is the first offer. If you take the first offer then maybe there is another 10 or 15% left on the table. After the 350th offer, there is not 10 or 15% left on the table, there are crumbs. You pick up whatever crumbs you have and then go find out if the MEC and the pilots want to take the deal.
Take it or leave it, that's your choice. But don't reject it thinking there are anything else but crumbs left on the table. Richard Anderson is a good boss but he is a very hard man. If you haven't met him you will find that out very quickly when you do. If someone thinks he will start crying and fork over gobs of money with a rejected TA, then you have never met him. He has already formulated the plan to follow if there is no deal and he will execute that plan. From his viewpoint, Delta pilots already cost more per block hour than any other pilot group so he is more than ready to wait for some other pilot group to raise that bar.
He views his major competition as United. Right now Delta pilots make about $40,000 to $50,000 more than they do and have better work rules and worse productivity. That is how he views us. If we can add value to Delta then we will be rewarded. Don't add value and there is no reason to reward us. That is capitalism at its most raw form.
Is there an issue here, or are all of these reps wrong? No flame just a serious question given what is coming out.
05-26-2012, 09:10 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 758
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
What I mean is that in the final stages of negotiations, we weren't arguing about $100 million or $50 million, we were arguing about a few million or a 1/5% raise. Imagine having 350 different turns in a house negotiation. Those last ten turns you are arguing about the drapes and the ceiling fan, not whether the price of the house is going to be $500,000 or $400,000.
I understand for pilots, they see the deal for the first time and they may assume it is the first offer. If you take the first offer then maybe there is another 10 or 15% left on the table. After the 350th offer, there is not 10 or 15% left on the table, there are crumbs. You pick up whatever crumbs you have and then go find out if the MEC and the pilots want to take the deal.
Take it or leave it, that's your choice. But don't reject it thinking there are anything else but crumbs left on the table. Richard Anderson is a good boss but he is a very hard man. If you haven't met him you will find that out very quickly when you do. If someone thinks he will start crying and fork over gobs of money with a rejected TA, then you have never met him. He has already formulated the plan to follow if there is no deal and he will execute that plan. From his viewpoint, Delta pilots already cost more per block hour than any other pilot group so he is more than ready to wait for some other pilot group to raise that bar.
He views his major competition as United. Right now Delta pilots make about $40,000 to $50,000 more than they do and have better work rules and worse productivity. That is how he views us. If we can add value to Delta then we will be rewarded. Don't add value and there is no reason to reward us. That is capitalism at its most raw form.
I understand for pilots, they see the deal for the first time and they may assume it is the first offer. If you take the first offer then maybe there is another 10 or 15% left on the table. After the 350th offer, there is not 10 or 15% left on the table, there are crumbs. You pick up whatever crumbs you have and then go find out if the MEC and the pilots want to take the deal.
Take it or leave it, that's your choice. But don't reject it thinking there are anything else but crumbs left on the table. Richard Anderson is a good boss but he is a very hard man. If you haven't met him you will find that out very quickly when you do. If someone thinks he will start crying and fork over gobs of money with a rejected TA, then you have never met him. He has already formulated the plan to follow if there is no deal and he will execute that plan. From his viewpoint, Delta pilots already cost more per block hour than any other pilot group so he is more than ready to wait for some other pilot group to raise that bar.
He views his major competition as United. Right now Delta pilots make about $40,000 to $50,000 more than they do and have better work rules and worse productivity. That is how he views us. If we can add value to Delta then we will be rewarded. Don't add value and there is no reason to reward us. That is capitalism at its most raw form.
Last edited by DLpilot; 05-26-2012 at 09:20 AM.
05-26-2012, 09:11 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
Don't the lawyers and admin look at these emails before they are sent Would they have caught an error?
He may be referring to what Mike C stated in a recent article that this is cost neutral for the company. I can see it being that way or slightly positive for them. They potentially can save a ton of money on this RJ swap.
He may be referring to what Mike C stated in a recent article that this is cost neutral for the company. I can see it being that way or slightly positive for them. They potentially can save a ton of money on this RJ swap.
I worked on Letter 46 also. Here is a big secret, even though everyone said it saved $1 billion, we never got to $1 billion. Sometimes it sounds better to say stuff like that.
05-26-2012, 09:13 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Originally Posted by Columbia
Muy bueno. Reserves will get mauled, IMO.
05-26-2012, 09:14 AM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
What I mean is that in the final stages of negotiations, we weren't arguing about $100 million or $50 million, we were arguing about a few million or a 1/5% raise. Imagine having 350 different turns in a house negotiation. Those last ten turns you are arguing about the drapes and the ceiling fan, not whether the price of the house is going to be $500,000 or $400,000.
I understand for pilots, they see the deal for the first time and they may assume it is the first offer. If you take the first offer then maybe there is another 10 or 15% left on the table. After the 350th offer, there is not 10 or 15% left on the table, there are crumbs. You pick up whatever crumbs you have and then go find out if the MEC and the pilots want to take the deal.
Take it or leave it, that's your choice. But don't reject it thinking there are anything else but crumbs left on the table. Richard Anderson is a good boss but he is a very hard man. If you haven't met him you will find that out very quickly when you do. If someone thinks he will start crying and fork over gobs of money with a rejected TA, then you have never met him. He has already formulated the plan to follow if there is no deal and he will execute that plan. From his viewpoint, Delta pilots already cost more per block hour than any other pilot group so he is more than ready to wait for some other pilot group to raise that bar.
He views his major competition as United. Right now Delta pilots make about $40,000 to $50,000 more than they do and have better work rules and worse productivity. That is how he views us. If we can add value to Delta then we will be rewarded. Don't add value and there is no reason to reward us. That is capitalism at its most raw form.
I understand for pilots, they see the deal for the first time and they may assume it is the first offer. If you take the first offer then maybe there is another 10 or 15% left on the table. After the 350th offer, there is not 10 or 15% left on the table, there are crumbs. You pick up whatever crumbs you have and then go find out if the MEC and the pilots want to take the deal.
Take it or leave it, that's your choice. But don't reject it thinking there are anything else but crumbs left on the table. Richard Anderson is a good boss but he is a very hard man. If you haven't met him you will find that out very quickly when you do. If someone thinks he will start crying and fork over gobs of money with a rejected TA, then you have never met him. He has already formulated the plan to follow if there is no deal and he will execute that plan. From his viewpoint, Delta pilots already cost more per block hour than any other pilot group so he is more than ready to wait for some other pilot group to raise that bar.
He views his major competition as United. Right now Delta pilots make about $40,000 to $50,000 more than they do and have better work rules and worse productivity. That is how he views us. If we can add value to Delta then we will be rewarded. Don't add value and there is no reason to reward us. That is capitalism at its most raw form.
Let me tell you what capitalism is in its most raw form:
You dont buy junk.
Turn in your man card, the ladies room is down the hall on the left.
OBTW, how did hiring 35% from ALPA DCI make it into this TA?
I gotta get a Donut after reading your bull
05-26-2012, 09:15 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Boeing Hearing and Ergonomics Lab Rat, Night Shift
Posts: 1,724
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
...Now, we have a TA that is subject to MEMRAT. We can turn it down, and it puts pressure of the company to walk away from a comprehensive TA that solves a lot of issues for them, or they can fix about 30 or so line items and this can be a great product that all can be proud of. Its their decision, but it would have to be turned down and no one denies that there is risk with that...
Should we vote down this TA, that doesn't mean we wait till Dec 31, 2012, or wait until we are in mediation...
Why would the company change their side of "constructive engagement" one a TA disagreement? As pilots we've had many disagreements with the company, things we deemed in violation of the PWA or the intent of the PWA language. Some of these items we grieved, some we won or settled and yet we still come back for "constructive engagement."
Why would it be any different if the shoe is on the other foot?
Cheers
George
05-26-2012, 09:16 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
ALPA is independence plus. The elected reps can say anything they want to say. I know what Mike Campbell said and I know what was costed.
I worked on Letter 46 also. Here is a big secret, even though everyone said it saved $1 billion, we never got to $1 billion. Sometimes it sounds better to say stuff like that.
I worked on Letter 46 also. Here is a big secret, even though everyone said it saved $1 billion, we never got to $1 billion. Sometimes it sounds better to say stuff like that.
As for what the actual savings were, its water under, over or through the dam, the savings here or costing of C2012 is what matters. I would love to see the math of this costing the company over a billion bucks in three years. I can see that metric since the reps are saying we did not get a bargining credit for the RJ lease return savings.
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