Originally Posted by johnso29

There is simply no way we will fully recapture scope in one TA. Soutwest scope is not attainable that quickly.

Originally Posted by alfaromeo

I was intimately involved in the costing of this and I have all of the info. Tom made a mistake, this is not cost neutral. There were hours and hours of briefings so it is understandable if something was missed.

By the way, there is no direct value placed in many items that are very important to pilots for instance additional JV protections, additional furlough protections, the block hour ratio (which is the most valuable improvement to scope since I have been a Delta pilot), and many other scope gains. For some of these items, other than this negotiation, you would have to buy a controlling share of Delta stock to have this type of control. Despite the web board rhetoric, these were difficult items for management to swallow and in my opinion, many of them will not return in three or four years when we could possibly complete negotiations if this agreement fails.

Originally Posted by alfaromeo

I was intimately involved in the costing of this and I have all of the info. Tom made a mistake, this is not cost neutral. There were hours and hours of briefings so it is understandable if something was missed.

By the way, there is no direct value placed in many items that are very important to pilots for instance additional JV protections, additional furlough protections, the block hour ratio (which is the most valuable improvement to scope since I have been a Delta pilot), and many other scope gains. For some of these items, other than this negotiation, you would have to buy a controlling share of Delta stock to have this type of control. Despite the web board rhetoric, these were difficult items for management to swallow and in my opinion, many of them will not return in three or four years when we could possibly complete negotiations if this agreement fails.

Originally Posted by newKnow

alfa,

What do you mean by this?

Originally Posted by acl65pilot

*

Read the reps letters that are coming out. There was a long debate about this, but the reps as a whole felt that there was too much risk with going back. I'm not sure I follow the logic. You say we need this much more here and here to get 100% MEC approval and if they say, but we want this and this, you walk away consult the reps and go from there. You at that point still have a TA. They were in session so direction is very easy to give.*

That said, the reps debated it and chose to send it to MEC vote. The vote is 3:1 in favor of this. Talk to your reps about what they were thinking that week between the announcement of the TA and the vote. If they wanted to send it back, ask why they voted yes. There are a few of them from what I gather.


Now, we have a TA that is subject to MEMRAT. We can turn it down, and it puts pressure of the company to walk away from a comprehensive TA that solves a lot of issues for them, or they can fix about 30 or so line items and this can be a great product that all can be proud of. Its their decision, but it would have to be turned down and no one denies that there is risk with that.

Also, pay is not the only thing causing concern. Pilots have hit on othres:
1) Reserves do not get rotation guarantee nor do they get paid like a line holder

2) The ratio language appears to not guarantee growth but a dual accumulator if we shrink. (Demand to see how many mainline jets we see as growth off of this compared to the amount of RJs being sold) The ratio is based on domestic narrow body jets which have some long stage lengths.*

3) JV language covers profit/loss which includes revenue sharing but is effectively limited to those two types of monetary structures.*

4) RJET cutout on the holding company provisions. Could they fly C-Series for Skyteam and connect to AF flights?*

5) Horizion Q400 cut out. What is the beneift for this? Was it so we could include ALK in the holding company provisions without expempting the entire holding company or something else?

5) RLL recovery flying and the results of them being assigned or forced to pick up flying that would reduce reserve callouts.*

6) Reserves picking up reserve days. If called out does it hit the reserves required forumula? What percentage of GS's and WS's under 12 hrs will be gone because of this and the RLL language?*

7) Reserves being on the hook for ALV+15 if they are one minute under guarantee. What effect does this have on GS?

8) A follow on but what is the the math on what percentage the GS awards will go down now, and going forward?

9) Reroute was not touched. Remember the volcano and international guys being on the hook for 30 hrs past sign out? *Unchanged

10) Pay and how this lack of patterning will hurt UCAL and UPS in section 6 and FDX,and LUV who are going in later this year

11) Reduced profit sharing. Though monitized in pay are we really at a point where we need to shuffle the deck chairs?

12) Higher ALV thus causing many to work more, which requires less bodies in each seat

13) Avg day at 4:30 versus 6 which was what many wanted to see because it is indusrty avg among LUV, FDX, UPS etc. Why not an international breakout if 6 could not be achieved for domestic ops.

14) Low increases to per diem and international override

15)The RJ's were hard limited and now we are upping the large RJ limit to help facilitate the companies needs, but not getting decent/liner returns.*

16) overall concern for the vague language in many parts of the document

The positives I have heard/see are:
1) Better section one provisions. Many see it as a gain to see flying returned to mainline for the cost involved. They see their capt seat or hiring to get them off the bottom.*

2) JV protections are better and spell out the need for a production balance in a few situations.*

3) Holding company protections are better. Makes another republic holdings impossible to have*

4) Furlough protections are better

5) Pay is better though no where near their mins.*

6) Reserves get paid more and can pick up more pay if wanted

7) Better vacation pay

8) Better distance learning pay from 3:1 to 2:1

9) Increased per diem and international over ride

10) growth or at least the possibility of growth with the SNB

11) Downside protections wrt to RJ's*

12) Early Out that nulls the work rule efficencies at least initally.*

13) better sick bank with no more 75% pay

14) 1% increase in DC in 2014

15) Short duration deal with some protections to start talks in early 2015.
**
Its not a total list, but just one that i have complied from posts e-mail and phone calls from the last week.

DYODD. Read the langauage and determine if the language is tight enough for you, your family and the pilot group as a whole.

Originally Posted by alfaromeo

What I mean is that in the final stages of negotiations, we weren't arguing about $100 million or $50 million, we were arguing about a few million or a 1/5% raise. Imagine having 350 different turns in a house negotiation. Those last ten turns you are arguing about the drapes and the ceiling fan, not whether the price of the house is going to be $500,000 or $400,000.

I understand for pilots, they see the deal for the first time and they may assume it is the first offer. If you take the first offer then maybe there is another 10 or 15% left on the table. After the 350th offer, there is not 10 or 15% left on the table, there are crumbs. You pick up whatever crumbs you have and then go find out if the MEC and the pilots want to take the deal.

Take it or leave it, that's your choice. But don't reject it thinking there are anything else but crumbs left on the table. Richard Anderson is a good boss but he is a very hard man. If you haven't met him you will find that out very quickly when you do. If someone thinks he will start crying and fork over gobs of money with a rejected TA, then you have never met him. He has already formulated the plan to follow if there is no deal and he will execute that plan. From his viewpoint, Delta pilots already cost more per block hour than any other pilot group so he is more than ready to wait for some other pilot group to raise that bar.

He views his major competition as United. Right now Delta pilots make about $40,000 to $50,000 more than they do and have better work rules and worse productivity. That is how he views us. If we can add value to Delta then we will be rewarded. Don't add value and there is no reason to reward us. That is capitalism at its most raw form.

Originally Posted by CVG767A

The 50 seat RJs aren't going away nearly quickly enough, because Delta is locked into long-term contracts to operate them. I would guess it's cheaper to fly them at a loss than to buy out the contracts. Giving those regional airlines the 76 seaters is what would free us from the 50 seater contracts.

The best thing to keep RJs in check is a viable small narrow body aircraft. This TA gives Delta an incentive to buy those aircraft.

Originally Posted by alfaromeo

What I mean is that in the final stages of negotiations, we weren't arguing about $100 million or $50 million, we were arguing about a few million or a 1/5% raise. Imagine having 350 different turns in a house negotiation. Those last ten turns you are arguing about the drapes and the ceiling fan, not whether the price of the house is going to be $500,000 or $400,000.

I understand for pilots, they see the deal for the first time and they may assume it is the first offer. If you take the first offer then maybe there is another 10 or 15% left on the table. After the 350th offer, there is not 10 or 15% left on the table, there are crumbs. You pick up whatever crumbs you have and then go find out if the MEC and the pilots want to take the deal.

Take it or leave it, that's your choice. But don't reject it thinking there are anything else but crumbs left on the table. Richard Anderson is a good boss but he is a very hard man. If you haven't met him you will find that out very quickly when you do. If someone thinks he will start crying and fork over gobs of money with a rejected TA, then you have never met him. He has already formulated the plan to follow if there is no deal and he will execute that plan. From his viewpoint, Delta pilots already cost more per block hour than any other pilot group so he is more than ready to wait for some other pilot group to raise that bar.

He views his major competition as United. Right now Delta pilots make about $40,000 to $50,000 more than they do and have better work rules and worse productivity. That is how he views us. If we can add value to Delta then we will be rewarded. Don't add value and there is no reason to reward us. That is capitalism at its most raw form.