Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
07-20-2009, 07:52 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,993
Originally Posted by BlaineFaban
Sure you're not, huckleberry.
I wouldn't have come along if you could get your "facts" straight. You are wrong, you have been all along, about just about everything. Yet you keep on throwing things out there, seeing if anything will stick.
I wouldn't have come along if you could get your "facts" straight. You are wrong, you have been all along, about just about everything. Yet you keep on throwing things out there, seeing if anything will stick.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 07-20-2009 at 09:11 PM.
07-20-2009, 08:03 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: crj-200 FO
Posts: 479
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
I agree. It was also the reason I stated I hoped they are correct.
Our forecasts have been wrong for the last two and a half years.
Our forecasts have been wrong for the last two and a half years.
Sooner or later they will be correct.
07-20-2009, 08:10 PM
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Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: Kickin’ Back
Posts: 6,971
Bar,
Isn't one of the tenets of ALPA merger policy that is supposed to be considered career progression? Couldn't the arbitrators have looked at the NW retirements and their dilution caused by the merger as lost career progression? If so, I do not see that any precedent was set other than their interpretation of ALPA merger policy.
Denny
Isn't one of the tenets of ALPA merger policy that is supposed to be considered career progression? Couldn't the arbitrators have looked at the NW retirements and their dilution caused by the merger as lost career progression? If so, I do not see that any precedent was set other than their interpretation of ALPA merger policy.
Denny
07-20-2009, 08:26 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,993
Originally Posted by Denny Crane
Bar,
Isn't one of the tenets of ALPA merger policy that is supposed to be considered career progression? Couldn't the arbitrators have looked at the NW retirements and their dilution caused by the merger as lost career progression? If so, I do not see that any precedent was set other than their interpretation of ALPA merger policy.
Denny
Isn't one of the tenets of ALPA merger policy that is supposed to be considered career progression? Couldn't the arbitrators have looked at the NW retirements and their dilution caused by the merger as lost career progression? If so, I do not see that any precedent was set other than their interpretation of ALPA merger policy.
Denny
5. The merger representatives shall carefully weigh all the equities inherent in their merger situation. In joint session, the merger representatives should attempt to match equities to various methods of integration until a fair and equitable agreement is reached, keeping in mind the following goals, in no particular order:
a. Preserve jobs.
b. Avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other.
c. Maintain or improve pre-merger pay and standard of living.
d. Maintain or improve pre-merger pilot status.
e. Minimize detrimental changes to career expectations.
I'm just pointing out that:
(1) The award failed to adequately consider status quo, meaning relative seniority by category and class.
(2) The career long manipulations to the list were already substantially invalidated within eight months of the award.
Also, not complaining about this merger. This one is done. Just getting my "I told you guys that you were not going to like where this is taking us" prior to the Alaska, or part of US Air, or United, or who knows what sort of transaction.
Nu wrote a very even assessment of the merger outcome. My concern is how this precedent is applied going forward.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 07-20-2009 at 09:13 PM.
07-20-2009, 08:46 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,324
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
Exactly, but he does not realize it. Frankly, he just does not understand the meaning of the term "status quo."
There were three legal strategies employed (1) Be the craziest man at the table and intimidate everyone for fear your side will go nuts like US Air did. (2) Throw crap on the wall and see what sticks and (3) A well reasoned approach based on status quo, which is relative seniority by category and status with everyone in position by seniority.
NWA's strategy must have watered eyes in the offices of Johnnie Cochran and the Rainbow Coalition. It was the perfect minority position play and was executed very well. Delta, as the larger group, had to remain rational to keep the whole deal from falling apart, so concession after concession was made to appease the NWA group. Then the arbitrator came along and made an unprecedented award which included crediting attrition as an equity. Delta writing the program for plug and play was every bit as much of an error as entering the "bloody glove" into evidence and letting OJ make a mockery of trying it on. (it at least distributed the legerdemain so that the most senior Delta pilots were hurt less than they could be in a straight award, which is what I guess they were thinking, or maybe it was just pride that made them blurt out "we can do that!" )
It is a remarkably dangerous precedent and complicates future seniority integrations as going forward each side will make increasingly preposterous promises of future performance in the hope an arbitrator will buy off on their vision of the future. Further, the other sides negative views on their "opponent's" projections will poison the negotiations and make long standing riffs between ALPA members.
In this business, no company can keep promises of future performance. It is a fact we need to fully realize, particularly in scope negotiations.
The award is a bad precedent because of the amount of speculative claims which subsequently formed the basis of the award. As I and others have pointed out, the theory of pull and plug has already been invalidated already by the early retirements. A cornerstone of the award did not even make it 8 months before being invalidated by subsequent events. The speculative nature of this award will be a problem for our profession and will haunt us again in the next corporate transaction Delta gets involved in. The NWA award is history, I'm over it. But we all need to realize the can of worms this poorly conceived award opens and the threats that are on the horizon.
In effect, the early retirements had the same effect on the NWA list as they have had on the Delta list. Send another ~ 1,200 out the door and things would be even by equipment and category which would be very close to status quo, imagine that.
There were three legal strategies employed (1) Be the craziest man at the table and intimidate everyone for fear your side will go nuts like US Air did. (2) Throw crap on the wall and see what sticks and (3) A well reasoned approach based on status quo, which is relative seniority by category and status with everyone in position by seniority.
NWA's strategy must have watered eyes in the offices of Johnnie Cochran and the Rainbow Coalition. It was the perfect minority position play and was executed very well. Delta, as the larger group, had to remain rational to keep the whole deal from falling apart, so concession after concession was made to appease the NWA group. Then the arbitrator came along and made an unprecedented award which included crediting attrition as an equity. Delta writing the program for plug and play was every bit as much of an error as entering the "bloody glove" into evidence and letting OJ make a mockery of trying it on. (it at least distributed the legerdemain so that the most senior Delta pilots were hurt less than they could be in a straight award, which is what I guess they were thinking, or maybe it was just pride that made them blurt out "we can do that!" )
It is a remarkably dangerous precedent and complicates future seniority integrations as going forward each side will make increasingly preposterous promises of future performance in the hope an arbitrator will buy off on their vision of the future. Further, the other sides negative views on their "opponent's" projections will poison the negotiations and make long standing riffs between ALPA members.
In this business, no company can keep promises of future performance. It is a fact we need to fully realize, particularly in scope negotiations.
The award is a bad precedent because of the amount of speculative claims which subsequently formed the basis of the award. As I and others have pointed out, the theory of pull and plug has already been invalidated already by the early retirements. A cornerstone of the award did not even make it 8 months before being invalidated by subsequent events. The speculative nature of this award will be a problem for our profession and will haunt us again in the next corporate transaction Delta gets involved in. The NWA award is history, I'm over it. But we all need to realize the can of worms this poorly conceived award opens and the threats that are on the horizon.
In effect, the early retirements had the same effect on the NWA list as they have had on the Delta list. Send another ~ 1,200 out the door and things would be even by equipment and category which would be very close to status quo, imagine that.
07-20-2009, 09:45 PM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by BlaineFaban
Sure you're not, huckleberry.
I wouldn't have come along if you could get your "facts" straight. You are wrong, you have been all along, about just about everything. Yet you keep on throwing things out there, seeing if anything will stick.
I wouldn't have come along if you could get your "facts" straight. You are wrong, you have been all along, about just about everything. Yet you keep on throwing things out there, seeing if anything will stick.
Carl
07-20-2009, 09:56 PM
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Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by capncrunch
Yawn. Too many holes to address just one. Move on.
Bar, from your recent posts, I had interest in reading your thoughts. That's why I had heartburn over what you were saying. But I had no idea you had this level of contempt for the DAL-N guys. Thanks for clearing it up. I won't bother even attempting dialogue with you.
Wow.
Carl
07-20-2009, 10:35 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
What Carl is saying is really kind of simple, but maybe people can’t see it because they are not looking at it from a pre-merger perspective. Use me as an example. I am one of the “lucky 1995” hires. When Bloch laid out the new SLI law, I wound up gaining 3-4% and was close to DAL-S guys who were hired in 1991. But, since the SLI has come out, as Carl said, those 270 pull, plug NWA pilots that were given to us, have retired. So, if the merger had occurred today, instead of last year, I would have had the 3-4% anyway. In the mean time though, if (and it’s a big if because I haven’t taken the time to look at the numbers post-PERP), 270 DAL-N guys retire in the next 2-3 years, I would have been up another 3-4%. Then, at that point, I would have been up 8% with the SLI, instead of 3-4%. Carl’s point is that past 270 or 255--whatever pull plug was applied-- for every North retirement that occurs over and above the South retirements, the North side is “sharing” the retirements that Block didn’t think would happen this soon.
And don’t get me wrong, I am NOT complaining. I am one of the DAL-N guys who try to lay low and keep my mouth shut, because I am a poster child for the South guys. When the merger went down, I could hold left seat of the 320, barely. Post merger and the SLI, I was mixed in with 73N captains and a few 767 captains, which is wonderful. Gift accepted. But, I think what Carl is saying is that for every North guy that retires from here on out, the gift becomes less and less, because it’s something a lot of North guys could have gotten anyway.
I’m still happy the merger went down because I think both companies would be hurting without the other right now. I also realize that a big push for these retirements was the PERP that NWA management probably would not have offered. But, I can also see where Carl is coming from. Basically, Bloch didn’t think this many NWA pilots would retire this quickly. (Not that he had to take retirements in to account, but he did. As arbitrator, he didn't ha to do anything though.)
The SLI is over and personally I think both sides lost in some ways, but won in many more. If the North side could have gotten the unprecedented, dynamic list then we would have won (and we would be really winning right now, or be at least tied). If the South side had gotten fences, or even decent recall rights, you would have won. But, it didn’t happen. Can’t we just move on and try to get unified for when we have to fly together and negotiate together and maybe strike together in the coming years? American pilots make more money than us AND they have a pension, don’t cha know? (Get used to it south boys, it’s Minnesotan.)
The arbitrator(s) can do whatever he or she wants, and they did it. So, now what? If you make a mistake during a checkride, do you talk about how unprecedented it was that they gave you a V1 cut with a 15K crosswind, or do you keep flying the airplane?
New K Now
And don’t get me wrong, I am NOT complaining. I am one of the DAL-N guys who try to lay low and keep my mouth shut, because I am a poster child for the South guys. When the merger went down, I could hold left seat of the 320, barely. Post merger and the SLI, I was mixed in with 73N captains and a few 767 captains, which is wonderful. Gift accepted. But, I think what Carl is saying is that for every North guy that retires from here on out, the gift becomes less and less, because it’s something a lot of North guys could have gotten anyway.
I’m still happy the merger went down because I think both companies would be hurting without the other right now. I also realize that a big push for these retirements was the PERP that NWA management probably would not have offered. But, I can also see where Carl is coming from. Basically, Bloch didn’t think this many NWA pilots would retire this quickly. (Not that he had to take retirements in to account, but he did. As arbitrator, he didn't ha to do anything though.)
The SLI is over and personally I think both sides lost in some ways, but won in many more. If the North side could have gotten the unprecedented, dynamic list then we would have won (and we would be really winning right now, or be at least tied). If the South side had gotten fences, or even decent recall rights, you would have won. But, it didn’t happen. Can’t we just move on and try to get unified for when we have to fly together and negotiate together and maybe strike together in the coming years? American pilots make more money than us AND they have a pension, don’t cha know? (Get used to it south boys, it’s Minnesotan.)
The arbitrator(s) can do whatever he or she wants, and they did it. So, now what? If you make a mistake during a checkride, do you talk about how unprecedented it was that they gave you a V1 cut with a 15K crosswind, or do you keep flying the airplane?
New K Now
Last edited by newKnow; 07-20-2009 at 11:10 PM.
07-20-2009, 10:44 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
Nevermind........ (Maybe I should take a break from this board) 
07-20-2009, 11:01 PM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by newKnow
What Carl is saying is really kind of simple, but maybe people can’t see it because they are not looking at it from a pre-merger perspective. Use me as an example. I am one of the “lucky 1995” hires. When Bloch laid out the new SLI law, I wound up gaining 3-4% and was close to DAL-S guys who were hired in 1991. But, since the SLI has come out, as Carl said, those 270 pull, plug NWA pilots that were given to us, have retired. So, if the merger had occurred today, instead of last year, I would have had the 3-4% anyway. In the mean time though, if (and it’s a big if because I haven’t taken the time to look at the numbers post-PERP), 270 DAL-N guys retire in the next 2-3 years, I would have been up another 3-4%. Then, at that point, I would have been up 8% with the SLI, instead of 3-4%. Carl’s point is that past 270 or 255--whatever pull plug was applied-- for every North retirement that occurs over and above the South retirements, the North side is “sharing” the retirements that Block didn’t think would happen this soon.
And don’t get me wrong, I am NOT complaining. I am one of the DAL-N guys who try to lay low and keep my mouth shut, because I am a poster child for the South guys. When the merger went down, I could hold left seat of the 320, barely. Post merger and the SLI, I was mixed in with 73N captains and a few 767 captains, which is wonderful. Gift accepted. But, I think what Carl is saying is that for every North guy that retires from here on out, the gift becomes less and less, because it’s something a lot of North guys could have gotten anyway.
I’m still happy the merger went down because I think both companies would be hurting without the other right now. I also realize that a big push for these retirements was the PERP that NWA management probably would not have offered. But, I can also see where Carl is coming from. Basically, Bloch didn’t think this many NWA pilots would retire this quickly. (Not that he had to take retirements in to account, but he did. As arbitrator, he didn't ha to do anything though.)
The SLI is over and personally I think both sides lost in some ways, but won in many more. If the North side could have gotten the unprecedented, dynamic list then we would have won (and we would be really winning right now, or be at least tied). If the South side had gotten fences, or even decent recall rights, you would have won. But, it didn’t happen. Can’t we just move on and try to get unified for when we have to fly together and negotiate together and maybe strike together in the coming years? American pilots make more money than us AND they have a pension, don’t cha know? (Get used to it south boys, it’s Minnesotan.)
New K Now
And don’t get me wrong, I am NOT complaining. I am one of the DAL-N guys who try to lay low and keep my mouth shut, because I am a poster child for the South guys. When the merger went down, I could hold left seat of the 320, barely. Post merger and the SLI, I was mixed in with 73N captains and a few 767 captains, which is wonderful. Gift accepted. But, I think what Carl is saying is that for every North guy that retires from here on out, the gift becomes less and less, because it’s something a lot of North guys could have gotten anyway.
I’m still happy the merger went down because I think both companies would be hurting without the other right now. I also realize that a big push for these retirements was the PERP that NWA management probably would not have offered. But, I can also see where Carl is coming from. Basically, Bloch didn’t think this many NWA pilots would retire this quickly. (Not that he had to take retirements in to account, but he did. As arbitrator, he didn't ha to do anything though.)
The SLI is over and personally I think both sides lost in some ways, but won in many more. If the North side could have gotten the unprecedented, dynamic list then we would have won (and we would be really winning right now, or be at least tied). If the South side had gotten fences, or even decent recall rights, you would have won. But, it didn’t happen. Can’t we just move on and try to get unified for when we have to fly together and negotiate together and maybe strike together in the coming years? American pilots make more money than us AND they have a pension, don’t cha know? (Get used to it south boys, it’s Minnesotan.)
New K Now
Carl
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