Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
07-21-2009, 01:06 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,993
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
Maybe he will get away from the Honey-do's and get on here and start explaining it.
Simply put, the unprecedented nature of this award and it's failure to seek status quo make it an outlier. The result of which is to make future transactions less certain. Without a reliable benchmark, it will be more difficult to negotiate resolutions short of arbitration and more difficult for arbitrators to rule based on past precedent. There are more options on the table now that take the involved parties even further away from status quo, thus a risk to do real harm.
Carl seems to think my opinion disrespects the F-NWA pilots' representatives, when in truth the opposite is true. They advocated well for their pilots.
My concern is for the future application of this award and the fact that it is likely Delta will enter into another, similar, transaction in the future.
07-21-2009, 01:09 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
Originally Posted by BlaineFaban
Oh bull. It is not an opinion, the pull and plug is indeed a fact, and misunderstood by you. This PRP did not negate the 274. NWA pilots got the benefit from their retirements from day 1. You are just not smart enough to realize it. The pulls were "retired" from the NWA list prior to the creation of the merged list. Therefore, the benefit of their "retirement" was immediate as with them in the list everybody junior to less would have had a more junior ratio. So there was benefit there, and the when they actually retired after being plugged back into the list at their respective seniority again, dal pilots AND nwa pilots move up. In effect, NWA pilots benefit TWICE from the pull and plug for every "pull" senior to them. That IS how it works. It is NOT opinion. You WERE called out, and wrong.
Stop being a crybaby, man up, and admit you are wrong
Stop being a crybaby, man up, and admit you are wrong
07-21-2009, 01:14 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
Unless that "honey" is a dude in crew scheduling ... .
Simply put, the unprecedented nature of this award and it's failure to seek status quo make it an outlier. The result of which is to make future transactions less certain. Without a reliable benchmark, it will be more difficult to negotiate resolutions short of arbitration and more difficult for arbitrators to rule based on past precedent. There are more options on the table now that take the involved parties even further away from status quo, thus a risk to do real harm.
Carl seems to think my opinion disrespects the F-NWA pilots' representatives, when in truth the opposite is true. They advocated well for their pilots.
My concern is for the future application of this award and the fact that it is likely Delta will enter into another, similar, transaction in the future.
Simply put, the unprecedented nature of this award and it's failure to seek status quo make it an outlier. The result of which is to make future transactions less certain. Without a reliable benchmark, it will be more difficult to negotiate resolutions short of arbitration and more difficult for arbitrators to rule based on past precedent. There are more options on the table now that take the involved parties even further away from status quo, thus a risk to do real harm.
Carl seems to think my opinion disrespects the F-NWA pilots' representatives, when in truth the opposite is true. They advocated well for their pilots.
My concern is for the future application of this award and the fact that it is likely Delta will enter into another, similar, transaction in the future.
I agree with you too. I do agree that this was something new and something that could be part of a future award.
I also agree that we will be at the SLI table again. Probably well in advance of C2012.
07-21-2009, 01:15 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,993
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
I appreciate that ACL. I agree that we should be focusing on where we're going. But remember, this latest round started with Bucking Bar expressing his anger at pull and plug, and how it was an unprecedented arbitrator action, etc.
Carl
Carl
My concern relates to the future application of this unique award.
Maybe we should be like the Supreme Court in Bush v. Gore and stipulate that these arbitration awards can not be used as precedent in any future proceeding.
07-21-2009, 01:16 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Bar I see they have you working. Good on them. I hear they are very short staffed on that fleet. Better for you if you like going to work that is.
07-21-2009, 01:51 PM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
Carl seems to think my opinion disrespects the F-NWA pilots' representatives, when in truth the opposite is true. They advocated well for their pilots.
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
[I]
...There were three legal strategies employed (1) Be the craziest man at the table and intimidate everyone for fear your side will go nuts like US Air did. (2) Throw crap on the wall and see what sticks and (3) A well reasoned approach based on status quo, which is relative seniority by category and status with everyone in position by seniority.
NWA's strategy must have watered eyes in the offices of Johnnie Cochran and the Rainbow Coalition. It was the perfect minority position play and was executed very well. Delta, as the larger group, had to remain rational to keep the whole deal from falling apart, so concession after concession was made to appease the NWA group. Then the arbitrator came along and made an unprecedented award which included crediting attrition as an equity. Delta writing the program for plug and play was every bit as much of an error as entering the "bloody glove" into evidence and letting OJ make a mockery of trying it on. (it at least distributed the legerdemain so that the most senior Delta pilots were hurt less than they could be in a straight award, which is what I guess they were thinking, or maybe it was just pride that made them blurt out "we can do that!" )...
Carl
07-21-2009, 01:58 PM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
Hey, I have had my share of arguments with Carl, but I don't see him as angry or bitter...
Sorry, sometimes I just can't keep from being a Y-Zass.
Hell, most times I can't help it.
Carl
07-21-2009, 02:02 PM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
Not true. I pointed out that the early retirements negated some of the effect of pull and plug, a point that you and Nu seem to concur with in your subsequent postings.
My concern relates to the future application of this unique award.
Maybe we should be like the Supreme Court in Bush v. Gore and stipulate that these arbitration awards can not be used as precedent in any future proceeding.
My concern relates to the future application of this unique award.
Maybe we should be like the Supreme Court in Bush v. Gore and stipulate that these arbitration awards can not be used as precedent in any future proceeding.
Your first post on this that started the latest round was an intemperate rant (IMO) about pull and plug. It was not the modest post that you exemplify here. Maybe you had too many White Russians when you wrote it, and if so, that's fine. I understand. But you've not said so.
Carl
07-21-2009, 02:14 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Legacy FO
Posts: 4,097
Seriously, can we take the SLI crap somewhere else?
07-21-2009, 02:16 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: 88B - Loud Pipes Save Lives
Posts: 1,597
Second That!!!!!!!
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