Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
So let me get this straight. With augmented ops we go from a nice JFK/SFO (SEA, LAX, PDX ...) transcon with a decent layover, work-out, beer, dinner ... to a 3-man turn? A turn??!! Commuters will certainly love that -- more time in the crashpad. Guys who drive 3 hours to JFK will love that, more opportunity to wind upside down in a ditch. The zombie apocalypse will be here sooner than you think.
Might be a good thing for the 2 pilots who live near JFK, though.
CDO's: An absolute no vote.
Augmented domestic ops: An absolute no vote.
This is a giant step backwards in QOL. What's the point of more time off if you're dead?
Unfortunately I think this is someone's baby and I doubt this will go to MEMRAT.
Might be a good thing for the 2 pilots who live near JFK, though.
CDO's: An absolute no vote.
Augmented domestic ops: An absolute no vote.
This is a giant step backwards in QOL. What's the point of more time off if you're dead?
Unfortunately I think this is someone's baby and I doubt this will go to MEMRAT.
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,689
DELTA MASTER EXECUTIVE COUNCIL
March 22 – 27, 2010
Orlando, Florida
AGENDA ITEM #AI 10-52COMMITTEE # 2
MAKER: ENDLER SECOND: GERST
MOTION # VOTE:
WHEREAS the single duty period overnight rotations, more commonly known as “illegals,” were very popular with the most senior pilots who live in base, and
WHEREAS these “illegal” rotations are very cost effective and eliminated the need for 30+ hour domestic layovers in many locations with minimal service, and
WHEREAS “Illegal” rotations are flown by all the other major mainline carriers,
THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED the Delta MEC directs the Negotiating Committee and Scheduling Committee to use any resources necessary to provide for the construction and reinstatement of single duty period short overnight rotations for domestic pilots, and
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED the MEC directs the Scheduling Committee to work with the Company to build and return “illegals” back to the monthly bid packages.
March 22 – 27, 2010
Orlando, Florida
AGENDA ITEM #AI 10-52COMMITTEE # 2
MAKER: ENDLER SECOND: GERST
MOTION # VOTE:
WHEREAS the single duty period overnight rotations, more commonly known as “illegals,” were very popular with the most senior pilots who live in base, and
WHEREAS these “illegal” rotations are very cost effective and eliminated the need for 30+ hour domestic layovers in many locations with minimal service, and
WHEREAS “Illegal” rotations are flown by all the other major mainline carriers,
THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED the Delta MEC directs the Negotiating Committee and Scheduling Committee to use any resources necessary to provide for the construction and reinstatement of single duty period short overnight rotations for domestic pilots, and
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED the MEC directs the Scheduling Committee to work with the Company to build and return “illegals” back to the monthly bid packages.
so did that resolution pass?
Except for this part:
(C) Ninety consecutive minutes are available for in-flight rest for the pilot performing monitoring duties during landing.
Both pilots sitting in control seats during landing are required to have rest during flight.
But my question is, how can the pilot doing the first landing get 2 consecutive hours of rest in the second half of the FDP?
(C) Ninety consecutive minutes are available for in-flight rest for the pilot performing monitoring duties during landing.
Both pilots sitting in control seats during landing are required to have rest during flight.
But my question is, how can the pilot doing the first landing get 2 consecutive hours of rest in the second half of the FDP?
Minus 1.5 (toc and tod) equals 6.5 at cruise
Pm at toc gets ninety minutes, that puts us with 4 hrs remaining.
Pilot landing gets the last 2 hours.
That still leaves 2 hours.
It is just friendly to give the relief guy bunk time.
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,544
Because nothing on day one before noon was the management imposed status quo once 117 took effect; even they couldn't force anything earlier. Yet we gave them the earliest FAR legal report time 2 hours sooner as a concession to fund other things. Ergo RSV pilots were sold out to throw dollars at other groups. You Shirley can't be OK with that? It also helps the company out with staffing. Perhaps you could argue that we used that as bargaining credits to apply elsewhere I guess. But really?
Reserves also get on average significantly fewer days off per month than line holders. And contrary to populist hyperbole, most reserves aren't chilling at home with footlong beards only showing up to sims for currency. And most pilots, and I know this really frosts you, are commuters (and many "locals" have VERY significant drives far in excess of many air commuters). Not everyone can bid ATL and drive a golf cart to work. That is a reality of the industry of a majority of our pilots and our union needs to accept that. Noon on day one was a very workable solution to the realities of 117 that significantly increased reserve QOL. And we gave it up for little cookies elsewhere in the contract.
Same thing for the other massive concession we gave. 13 hour long call, if it results in a 3 hour callback leash, is another massive concession we caved to in order to fund other things. The company didn't need either of those concessions. But we traded them away for cookies to apply elsewhere.
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,544
I agree. That is the only way I can interpret that sentence. Ergo, current book must have been better for us. Obviously we have to obey the limits of the FAR's anyway, so this strongly implies that current book was more restrictive. This certainlly appears like at least the third concession (4th depending on how CDO's end up looking).
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,689
So let me get this straight. With augmented ops we go from a nice JFK/SFO (SEA, LAX, PDX ...) transcon with a decent layover, work-out, beer, dinner ... to a 3-man turn? A turn??!! Commuters will certainly love that -- more time in the crashpad. Guys who drive 3 hours to JFK will love that, more opportunity to wind upside down in a ditch. The zombie apocalypse will be here sooner than you think.
Might be a good thing for the 2 pilots who live near JFK, though.
CDO's: An absolute no vote.
Augmented domestic ops: An absolute no vote.
This is a giant step backwards in QOL. What's the point of more time off if you're dead?
Unfortunately I think this is someone's baby and I doubt this will go to MEMRAT.
Might be a good thing for the 2 pilots who live near JFK, though.
CDO's: An absolute no vote.
Augmented domestic ops: An absolute no vote.
This is a giant step backwards in QOL. What's the point of more time off if you're dead?
Unfortunately I think this is someone's baby and I doubt this will go to MEMRAT.
One other consideration. If Delta did decided to fly transcon turns if your not in the top 20 percent in category don't plan on seeing one. A SFO turn would pay around 12:30. Fly 6 a month and you will have 75 hours. Two three day groupings would look pretty nice as a monthly schedule! Not going to happen however, just to costly for the company
Whoever wrote that document for ALPA is guilty of using vague and imprecise terms just like we have been doing here on the forum. When the author says "mid duty rest" he is apparently referring to the rest opportunity that is defined in 117.15
And I repeat - there is no such animal as a "CDO". Wykoff shouldn't have used that term.
And FAR 117.15 in the very first sentence says that the rest opportunity means sleep.
That ALPA Q&A is pretty good but in their attempt to give it an "everyman" informal tone and be more "conversational" they fall short in some areas. I hope (and trust) that our negotiators did better.
I would refer you to actual FAR and the supporting documents published by the FAA which provide some background and clarification.
Here's some really good background documents (if you need a sleep aid)
Documents Associated with 14 CFR Part 117
And I repeat - there is no such animal as a "CDO". Wykoff shouldn't have used that term.
And FAR 117.15 in the very first sentence says that the rest opportunity means sleep.
That ALPA Q&A is pretty good but in their attempt to give it an "everyman" informal tone and be more "conversational" they fall short in some areas. I hope (and trust) that our negotiators did better.
I would refer you to actual FAR and the supporting documents published by the FAA which provide some background and clarification.
Here's some really good background documents (if you need a sleep aid)
Documents Associated with 14 CFR Part 117
With 121.471 you had a 16 max duty day and could have a very long CDO if there were no contract provisions.
With 117 there are shorter max duty days based on when you duty in. Most CDOs would duty in between 1700 - 2159 which allows a "continuous duty period" of 12 hours with no hotel or rest requirement for a two leg duty period.
Our PWA has much tighter language for late duty ins. At 2100 the max duty day is 9 hours and is variable +/- that time based on the actual report.
If we agree to give up our PWA language and go to the FAR 117 FDP we would be upping our duty period by 3 hours on average for CDO style operations.
A Split Duty Period allows for even longer Duty periods but has a requirement for hotel rest but there is no FAR requirement for a SDP vs a CDO if the flight can operate in a 12 hour duty period.
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Road construction signholder
Posts: 2,438
Reserves also get on average significantly fewer days off per month than line holders. And contrary to populist hyperbole, most reserves aren't chilling at home with footlong beards only showing up to sims for currency.
Noon on day one was a very workable solution to the realities of 117 that significantly increased reserve QOL. And we gave it up for little cookies elsewhere in the contract.
Same thing for the other massive concession we gave. 13 hour long call, if it results in a 3 hour callback leash, is another massive concession we caved to in order to fund other things.
The company didn't need either of those concessions. But we traded them away for cookies to apply elsewhere.
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