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Old 05-19-2014, 08:43 AM
  #157431  
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So let me get this straight. With augmented ops we go from a nice JFK/SFO (SEA, LAX, PDX ...) transcon with a decent layover, work-out, beer, dinner ... to a 3-man turn? A turn??!! Commuters will certainly love that -- more time in the crashpad. Guys who drive 3 hours to JFK will love that, more opportunity to wind upside down in a ditch. The zombie apocalypse will be here sooner than you think.

Might be a good thing for the 2 pilots who live near JFK, though.

CDO's: An absolute no vote.
Augmented domestic ops: An absolute no vote.

This is a giant step backwards in QOL. What's the point of more time off if you're dead?

Unfortunately I think this is someone's baby and I doubt this will go to MEMRAT.
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Old 05-19-2014, 08:55 AM
  #157432  
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Originally Posted by Starcheck102
DELTA MASTER EXECUTIVE COUNCIL
March 22 – 27, 2010
Orlando, Florida



AGENDA ITEM #​AI 10-52​​​COMMITTEE # ​ 2 ​​

MAKER: ENDLER ​​​SECOND: ​GERST​

MOTION # ​​VOTE: ​


WHEREAS the single duty period overnight rotations, more commonly known as “illegals,” were very popular with the most senior pilots who live in base, and

WHEREAS these “illegal” rotations are very cost effective and eliminated the need for 30+ hour domestic layovers in many locations with minimal service, and

WHEREAS “Illegal” rotations are flown by all the other major mainline carriers,

THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED the Delta MEC directs the Negotiating Committee and Scheduling Committee to use any resources necessary to provide for the construction and reinstatement of single duty period short overnight rotations for domestic pilots, and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED the MEC directs the Scheduling Committee to work with the Company to build and return “illegals” back to the monthly bid packages.
Why would you make something like this up! Don't you read the forum!
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Old 05-19-2014, 08:59 AM
  #157433  
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so did that resolution pass?
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Old 05-19-2014, 09:00 AM
  #157434  
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Originally Posted by Dash8widget
Except for this part:
(C) Ninety consecutive minutes are available for in-flight rest for the pilot performing monitoring duties during landing.

Both pilots sitting in control seats during landing are required to have rest during flight.

But my question is, how can the pilot doing the first landing get 2 consecutive hours of rest in the second half of the FDP?
8:01 flt
Minus 1.5 (toc and tod) equals 6.5 at cruise

Pm at toc gets ninety minutes, that puts us with 4 hrs remaining.
Pilot landing gets the last 2 hours.
That still leaves 2 hours.

It is just friendly to give the relief guy bunk time.
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Old 05-19-2014, 09:21 AM
  #157435  
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Originally Posted by sailingfun
Why would you make something like this up! Don't you read the forum!
A forum that you so readily and actively participate in...
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Old 05-19-2014, 09:23 AM
  #157436  
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Originally Posted by Pineapple Guy
gloopy,

Why should a reserve get half a day off on his first day on? Help me understand why that is such a travesty.
Because you shouldn't have any obligation on your day off, that's why. Does this really need explaining? Your reserve day starts at midnight. If you want to give us a mandatory schedule check then, fine, but the default is long call because nothing can be "pre-assigned" so noon was the default earliest and even the company agreed months ago.

Because nothing on day one before noon was the management imposed status quo once 117 took effect; even they couldn't force anything earlier. Yet we gave them the earliest FAR legal report time 2 hours sooner as a concession to fund other things. Ergo RSV pilots were sold out to throw dollars at other groups. You Shirley can't be OK with that? It also helps the company out with staffing. Perhaps you could argue that we used that as bargaining credits to apply elsewhere I guess. But really?

Reserves also get on average significantly fewer days off per month than line holders. And contrary to populist hyperbole, most reserves aren't chilling at home with footlong beards only showing up to sims for currency. And most pilots, and I know this really frosts you, are commuters (and many "locals" have VERY significant drives far in excess of many air commuters). Not everyone can bid ATL and drive a golf cart to work. That is a reality of the industry of a majority of our pilots and our union needs to accept that. Noon on day one was a very workable solution to the realities of 117 that significantly increased reserve QOL. And we gave it up for little cookies elsewhere in the contract.

Same thing for the other massive concession we gave. 13 hour long call, if it results in a 3 hour callback leash, is another massive concession we caved to in order to fund other things. The company didn't need either of those concessions. But we traded them away for cookies to apply elsewhere.
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Old 05-19-2014, 09:30 AM
  #157437  
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Originally Posted by Alan Shore
I'm guessing it [adopt FAR FDP limits] means fly to the FARs. Looking at the current 12 D. rules, I see winners and some losers there.
I agree. That is the only way I can interpret that sentence. Ergo, current book must have been better for us. Obviously we have to obey the limits of the FAR's anyway, so this strongly implies that current book was more restrictive. This certainlly appears like at least the third concession (4th depending on how CDO's end up looking).
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Old 05-19-2014, 09:40 AM
  #157438  
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Originally Posted by GogglesPisano
So let me get this straight. With augmented ops we go from a nice JFK/SFO (SEA, LAX, PDX ...) transcon with a decent layover, work-out, beer, dinner ... to a 3-man turn? A turn??!! Commuters will certainly love that -- more time in the crashpad. Guys who drive 3 hours to JFK will love that, more opportunity to wind upside down in a ditch. The zombie apocalypse will be here sooner than you think.

Might be a good thing for the 2 pilots who live near JFK, though.

CDO's: An absolute no vote.
Augmented domestic ops: An absolute no vote.

This is a giant step backwards in QOL. What's the point of more time off if you're dead?

Unfortunately I think this is someone's baby and I doubt this will go to MEMRAT.
Another post with forum histeria without any real thought. As already discussed it requires 3 pilots verses two for each flight on a transcon turn. There has been nothing to stop any airline from flying these as a augmented turn for at least the last 30 years. No airline does them because it makes no sense. Even JetBlue who really wants transcon turns never considered augmenting them.
One other consideration. If Delta did decided to fly transcon turns if your not in the top 20 percent in category don't plan on seeing one. A SFO turn would pay around 12:30. Fly 6 a month and you will have 75 hours. Two three day groupings would look pretty nice as a monthly schedule! Not going to happen however, just to costly for the company
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Old 05-19-2014, 09:40 AM
  #157439  
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Originally Posted by Check Essential
Whoever wrote that document for ALPA is guilty of using vague and imprecise terms just like we have been doing here on the forum. When the author says "mid duty rest" he is apparently referring to the rest opportunity that is defined in 117.15

And I repeat - there is no such animal as a "CDO". Wykoff shouldn't have used that term.
And FAR 117.15 in the very first sentence says that the rest opportunity means sleep.

That ALPA Q&A is pretty good but in their attempt to give it an "everyman" informal tone and be more "conversational" they fall short in some areas. I hope (and trust) that our negotiators did better.

I would refer you to actual FAR and the supporting documents published by the FAA which provide some background and clarification.

Here's some really good background documents (if you need a sleep aid)

Documents Associated with 14 CFR Part 117
I still argue that CDOs are not gone based on my reading of FAR 117. The term CDO has never been in the FARs.

With 121.471 you had a 16 max duty day and could have a very long CDO if there were no contract provisions.

With 117 there are shorter max duty days based on when you duty in. Most CDOs would duty in between 1700 - 2159 which allows a "continuous duty period" of 12 hours with no hotel or rest requirement for a two leg duty period.

Our PWA has much tighter language for late duty ins. At 2100 the max duty day is 9 hours and is variable +/- that time based on the actual report.

If we agree to give up our PWA language and go to the FAR 117 FDP we would be upping our duty period by 3 hours on average for CDO style operations.

A Split Duty Period allows for even longer Duty periods but has a requirement for hotel rest but there is no FAR requirement for a SDP vs a CDO if the flight can operate in a 12 hour duty period.
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Old 05-19-2014, 09:45 AM
  #157440  
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Reserves also get on average significantly fewer days off per month than line holders. And contrary to populist hyperbole, most reserves aren't chilling at home with footlong beards only showing up to sims for currency.
Depends on the category. In most international categories, especially the "pure" international ones (i.e. everything but the 7ER) most reserves do sit home collecting the reserve guarantee. I agree that that is not the case elsewhere.

Noon on day one was a very workable solution to the realities of 117 that significantly increased reserve QOL. And we gave it up for little cookies elsewhere in the contract.
We lost all of two hours, which is not a huge deal. Further, even up until Jan 1 reserves could report as early as 0500 on day one--not a peep from you then, but now 1000 is an outrage? So apparently in your world the "good ol' days" ranged only from January-May 2014, and everything else sucked. And further, you state that we gave up the 2 hours for "little cookies." Do you refer to the ADG of 5.15 a day, that applies to reserves as well as regular lineholders, and applies to DH-only duty periods as well, as a "little cookie?" It is HUGE. It is revolutionary. It is even "disruptive" for those who like to talk economics. For the first time EVER reserves get paid the same for all trips as a regular lineholder does--guys have been complaining about that as long as DAL has existed, and we finally--finally--fixed it. But to you it is less than nothing. I disagree.

Same thing for the other massive concession we gave. 13 hour long call, if it results in a 3 hour callback leash, is another massive concession we caved to in order to fund other things.
You can't use the words "massive concession" and "if" in the same sentence. Why don't you (and I) wait for the detailed language before claiming something is or isn't.


The company didn't need either of those concessions. But we traded them away for cookies to apply elsewhere.
Your "cookie" is underestimating some of the positive changes, in my opinion. But I think we just need to read the details prior to making any definitive judgements.
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