Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
07-09-2014, 02:55 PM
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
"The January 1 pay rate increase represents an increase of roughly $75 million in value for the Delta pilots. It also marks somewhat of a milestone in that the New Year pay rates will be above those that were in place when Delta filed for bankruptcy protection in 2005." - Lee Moak, Chairman's Letter, September 23, 2010
07-09-2014, 03:26 PM
:-)
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,339
Ah, yes. How very "Lee Moak" of him...
"The January 1 pay rate increase represents an increase of roughly $75 million in value for the Delta pilots. It also marks somewhat of a milestone in that the New Year pay rates will be above those that were in place when Delta filed for bankruptcy protection in 2005." - Lee Moak, Chairman's Letter, September 23, 2010
Problem is that a very large number of Delta pilots do not consider our "pre-bankruptcy" concession of a draconian, unprecedented 32.5% pay cut to be a permanent reset. Many of us (most?) considered the 32.5% pay cut to be an extreme measure taken in an extreme emergency in an effort to try and keep our company from going into bankruptcy. I don't think any of us at the time intended or even envisioned that this would be permanent. (Adjusted for cost of living increase, our current pay rates are a 34% pay cut.)
Then along came Lee Moak, along with guys like Alfa, and voila... now we have a lot of folks accepting this drastically reduced value for our profession as a new norm. AND we've got a full decade of precedence indicating to management, Wall Street, etc. that we accept this "new norm" and have no intention of restoring our profession and our careers.
Way to go, Moak, Alfa, et al. Maybe someday you will be inducted into the Bean Counter Cost Cutting Hall of Fame!
"The January 1 pay rate increase represents an increase of roughly $75 million in value for the Delta pilots. It also marks somewhat of a milestone in that the New Year pay rates will be above those that were in place when Delta filed for bankruptcy protection in 2005." - Lee Moak, Chairman's Letter, September 23, 2010
Problem is that a very large number of Delta pilots do not consider our "pre-bankruptcy" concession of a draconian, unprecedented 32.5% pay cut to be a permanent reset. Many of us (most?) considered the 32.5% pay cut to be an extreme measure taken in an extreme emergency in an effort to try and keep our company from going into bankruptcy. I don't think any of us at the time intended or even envisioned that this would be permanent. (Adjusted for cost of living increase, our current pay rates are a 34% pay cut.)
Then along came Lee Moak, along with guys like Alfa, and voila... now we have a lot of folks accepting this drastically reduced value for our profession as a new norm. AND we've got a full decade of precedence indicating to management, Wall Street, etc. that we accept this "new norm" and have no intention of restoring our profession and our careers.
Way to go, Moak, Alfa, et al. Maybe someday you will be inducted into the Bean Counter Cost Cutting Hall of Fame!
07-09-2014, 03:29 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,953
No. Dispatcher sent message to go back to gate because we were going to time out. There was no pressure on us at all to continue. I'll give credit where it's due.
07-09-2014, 04:51 PM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Ah nevermind.
07-09-2014, 05:01 PM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Let me get this straight - The fact that I said I am not advocating any kind of "wink-wink" tactics makes you think that is what I was advocating? My response remain the same - If management chooses to not negotiate in good faith we can stop going above and beyond, no more no less - why is this so hard to grasp? I specifically said no organized effort would be needed and this is what I believe.
I will even give you and example - You pull into a gate. No gate agent. You make 1 call and and then just sit there for however long it takes. Note - and this is important - I am not advocating this now. This is what could give us leverage if management tried to park us. Clear enough now.
You can read into it whatever you want. I am telling you - you can choose not to listen. My whole response was based on his questions - What can we do if management refuses to negotiate.
My whole point (obviously missed by you) was that that any type of organized action would not be necessary. Hell if you are going to discount my actual post and read into what you want I will just sit back and let you speak for both of us.
You simply disregard what I actually typed and give it your own spin - despite the fact that I am telling you otherwise.
So when I posted on here numerous times that I voted for C-12 did that make me a kool-aide drinker? Seems to conflict with your web based analysis of me as a miserable person.
You seem to go about looking to get into keyboard sparring contests with your fellow DAL Pilots, giving them absolutely no credit in any regard, and then resort to demeaning them - me included in your original response.
Since you know what I am thinking I will let you present my side of all conversations with you from now on - have at it. Notice I said conversation because even you you may not realize it, every back and forth on this board does not have to be an argument.
Have a good day.
Scoop
I will even give you and example - You pull into a gate. No gate agent. You make 1 call and and then just sit there for however long it takes. Note - and this is important - I am not advocating this now. This is what could give us leverage if management tried to park us. Clear enough now.
You can read into it whatever you want. I am telling you - you can choose not to listen. My whole response was based on his questions - What can we do if management refuses to negotiate.
My whole point (obviously missed by you) was that that any type of organized action would not be necessary. Hell if you are going to discount my actual post and read into what you want I will just sit back and let you speak for both of us.
You simply disregard what I actually typed and give it your own spin - despite the fact that I am telling you otherwise.
So when I posted on here numerous times that I voted for C-12 did that make me a kool-aide drinker? Seems to conflict with your web based analysis of me as a miserable person.
You seem to go about looking to get into keyboard sparring contests with your fellow DAL Pilots, giving them absolutely no credit in any regard, and then resort to demeaning them - me included in your original response.
Since you know what I am thinking I will let you present my side of all conversations with you from now on - have at it. Notice I said conversation because even you you may not realize it, every back and forth on this board does not have to be an argument.
Have a good day.
Scoop
07-09-2014, 05:23 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,716
07-09-2014, 06:03 PM
:-)
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,339
07-09-2014, 06:32 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,716
Rep to ICAO, advertising internet co and used to be on the HAL board of directors....not sure where the millions are coming from.....
07-09-2014, 06:41 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
This is great news!!! How did I miss this?! I figure my average deficit on pay for the past 10 years due to the pay cuts is close to $100K/year. That's $1 million dollars total. Who do I need to call to get my $1 million back? Or is it hiding in my bank account somewhere and I just missed it? 
Listen, my friend, if you are looking for sympathy over recent events I can tell you that you are knocking on the wrong door. I would love to change the past but unfortunately that is not the way the world really works.
This is how it really works. In bankruptcy (which occurred in 2005-2007 if you can't remember that far back) we gave four years of non-pension concessions that averaged $150 million per year. 4 times 150 is $600 million. Are you keeping up so far? The pension is technically not a negotiated concession because there is no way to negotiate to terminate a defined benefit plan but let's just call that a concession to keep you from blowing your head apart. That was $900 million. Now in my calculator $900 million plus $600 million is $1.5 billion.
Returns. We got a $2.1 billion claim that netted pilots around $1.35 billion when it was sold. We got $650 million cash. Pull out your calculator and add those two and you should get $2.0 billion.
Now is $2.0 billion more than $1.5 billion? Yes or no?
So those are the facts. Take your self centered pity somewhere else because it won't work on me. No spin, just the real world. Now we can return to the usual silliness because I guess we have had enough of the real world for now.
Wake up, the world does not give a crap about what you think you are owed. No one cares, least of all me. If you let that form the basis of how you approach a business negotiation, you might as well surrender right now. You are really a sorry sight, quit feeling sorry for yourself, there are much worse things that can happen than losing a little money.
07-09-2014, 07:28 PM
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
So, now we enter the silly season. It is amazing how you try to have a discussion based on facts and then it turns to insanity.
Listen, my friend, if you are looking for sympathy over recent events I can tell you that you are knocking on the wrong door. I would love to change the past but unfortunately that is not the way the world really works.
This is how it really works. In bankruptcy (which occurred in 2005-2007 if you can't remember that far back) we gave four years of non-pension concessions that averaged $150 million per year. 4 times 150 is $600 million. Are you keeping up so far? The pension is technically not a negotiated concession because there is no way to negotiate to terminate a defined benefit plan but let's just call that a concession to keep you from blowing your head apart. That was $900 million. Now in my calculator $900 million plus $600 million is $1.5 billion.
Returns. We got a $2.1 billion claim that netted pilots around $1.35 billion when it was sold. We got $650 million cash. Pull out your calculator and add those two and you should get $2.0 billion.
Now is $2.0 billion more than $1.5 billion? Yes or no?
So those are the facts. Take your self centered pity somewhere else because it won't work on me. No spin, just the real world. Now we can return to the usual silliness because I guess we have had enough of the real world for now.
Wake up, the world does not give a crap about what you think you are owed. No one cares, least of all me. If you let that form the basis of how you approach a business negotiation, you might as well surrender right now. You are really a sorry sight, quit feeling sorry for yourself, there are much worse things that can happen than losing a little money.
Listen, my friend, if you are looking for sympathy over recent events I can tell you that you are knocking on the wrong door. I would love to change the past but unfortunately that is not the way the world really works.
This is how it really works. In bankruptcy (which occurred in 2005-2007 if you can't remember that far back) we gave four years of non-pension concessions that averaged $150 million per year. 4 times 150 is $600 million. Are you keeping up so far? The pension is technically not a negotiated concession because there is no way to negotiate to terminate a defined benefit plan but let's just call that a concession to keep you from blowing your head apart. That was $900 million. Now in my calculator $900 million plus $600 million is $1.5 billion.
Returns. We got a $2.1 billion claim that netted pilots around $1.35 billion when it was sold. We got $650 million cash. Pull out your calculator and add those two and you should get $2.0 billion.
Now is $2.0 billion more than $1.5 billion? Yes or no?
So those are the facts. Take your self centered pity somewhere else because it won't work on me. No spin, just the real world. Now we can return to the usual silliness because I guess we have had enough of the real world for now.
Wake up, the world does not give a crap about what you think you are owed. No one cares, least of all me. If you let that form the basis of how you approach a business negotiation, you might as well surrender right now. You are really a sorry sight, quit feeling sorry for yourself, there are much worse things that can happen than losing a little money.
I think I understand pretty well where you're coming from. You see bankruptcy as a reset for our profession. You have a fairly high level of expertise in analyzing corporate financials. You've even done some consulting. Just enough stuff so that you tend to see things from the perspective of a CFO... a bean counter.
In our case, you apparently have a lot more concern for the cost side of the business equation than you do for the value of a highly trained, highly experienced, sharp individual in the cockpit. That kind of lack of perspective and poor judgment is one of the reasons why CFO's don't always make the best CEO's. Bean counters are great at what they do... crunching numbers... an important part of the equation. Just not the WHOLE equation.
As for your "analysis" of our concessions... well... it's flawed. This isn't 2007. It's 2014. You are conveniently leaving out 6 years (2008-2014). Try including the difference between our pay in those years and what our pay would be inflation adjusted from 2004. Still think we aren't at a significant deficit? Oh that's right... you view bankruptcy as a reset. You don't think pilots can or should be paid that much in the first place. Keeping costs low is the most important priority. You're a bean counter first and foremost. And the really scary part? You're a bean counter that could be helping to determine our strategic plan for C2015!
And just to bring it back to the "real world"... none of the above diminishes the one thing on which you and I agree: There are much worse things in life that can happen than losing money.
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