Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
05-25-2015, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by BenderRodriguez
You can prove something else? Or are you calling your reps liars? If you don't trust them, maybe you should start a recall process.
But, hey, sure, they haven't discussed pay. I guess they're too busy finding ways to give away profit sharing, change sick leave to the detriment of your fellow pilots, sell scope, etc, etc. Yep, that's why they haven't gotten around to pay yet.
05-25-2015, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by DogWhisperer
DING-DING-DING!!!! GIVE THIS MAN A CIGAR!!! There is more to this job than the money. I have no desire to make a great income with the sacrifice of quality of life. What good is the money if you don't get to enjoy it with your family. Management would have us all working to the limits of the FARs if allowed. Quite a few on property would be willing to do it if available. Having worked in the regional world flying 95 hours of hard time a month, I have no desire to revisit that environment. Every little change in work rules has whittled away at a pilots control of their time off. Death by 1000 cuts if you will. I entered the business to fly 10-12 days a month...have a good income...and a great quality of life. After losing the cap...PBS...loss of vacation...changes in sick leave (to just name a few)....we are now working 15-17 days a month to have somewhat similar incomes. We have been chasing the "money ball" with a lost focus on the game. Pair this with our willingness to allow all the JV loopholes...flying that has been given away to help the company...but not us. Unless you consider helping the bottom line helps the company's profits...oh wait...we are looking at getting that amount reduced to us...silly me. Going forward...the JVs are going to be coming at us at a rapid pace. Aeromexico, soon to be GOL....not to mention the company's Chinese aspirations. Higher paying WB flying availability is going to be reduced for our side. Combine all the changes away from the pay rates and THAT is why we do not need to hurry in this negotiation. We have given up WAY to much to have to, once again, give up to get something in return. When a company offer is put on the table that doesn't better our position's quality of life...it should be greeted with silence from our side.
Rant over....now back to my cartoon world...
Rant over....now back to my cartoon world...
BACK the PAC
TEN
05-25-2015, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by UGBSM
Ill take a reasonable contract sooner rather than waste year after year swinging for the fences.
If you're saying you're in range of retirement and will take anything as long as its a raise to you even if it guts scope and QOL for everyone else, have fun with that stratedgy. But unless we sign 10 year deals the demographics will never support that, even during the big retirement wave, which isn't until the next contract most likely.
This isn't a matter of hey we can get a 30% raise today but that's not a Cadillac per month or C2K+ full inflation (and retro!) so lets hold out until we get the motherload! I get the time value of money argument, and while I don't think that means we should roll over too easy, there is some level of value in TVM. I get it. But this is about us not falling for numerous, DEEP concessions in the most critical section of the contract (scope, at ALL levels) and inheriting a pathetic sick/harassment program that will harm far more pilots for far more years than those who will get a few bucks prior to punching out (not to mention, its that same demographic that uses the most sick time in the first place).
I want positive gains form everyone, including the "dead zoners" and every other group all the way down to new hires. And I understand time value of money to a certain extent. But we should not sell management deep and permanent concessions for slightly more money sooner. That's just dumb. More importantly, the demographics simply don't support it anyway, even if we embrace a stratedgy of selling the majority down the river to get a few extra pieces of silver today.
05-25-2015, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Flamer
So personally, I don't care what wall st thinks about our PS. Actually I don't think they care about it as much as the union and mgt want you to think they care about it. But I understand it is a concern.
We only have to pay out a lot of profit sharing if there's, well, a LOT of profits. And the company gets to keep the vast majority of the profits regardless.
How many billions are being returned to the shareholders versus how many billions are being paid to employees vs PS, now but especially going forward? Anyone really think they are going to tank our stock because the constantly increasing and accelerating 5B+ "shareholder return" isn't enough?
Not falling for it. If "Wall Street doesn't like it" and tanks the stock just because of that (they won't) we would be in a position to reap a huge gain on the stock buyback portion of the plan and could roll the savings into a very robust dividend. Still think they would keep tanking the stock? Kind of hard to do when they're busy buying it up.
05-25-2015, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by UGBSM
Oh come on. Being reasonable in your expectations is not the same as surrendering and you know it.
Well, believe it or not, when you are a senior captain making over $300k per year as an hourly employee, pay raises are not necessarily your only focus. Non taxable income, tax advantaged income, and benefits such as vacation and medical insurance become more important than "25% plus 1/1/16". As the majority of pilots approach retirement I hope our contracts will reflect those priorities.
Well, believe it or not, when you are a senior captain making over $300k per year as an hourly employee, pay raises are not necessarily your only focus. Non taxable income, tax advantaged income, and benefits such as vacation and medical insurance become more important than "25% plus 1/1/16". As the majority of pilots approach retirement I hope our contracts will reflect those priorities.
If its from the minority its OK though, right? You paid your dues, so they can eat cake, right? Is that really what you're trying to say because that's exactly how its coming across.
Again, I'm not talking about time value of money and you thinking a nice raise sooner is better than a bigger raise later or maybe never. Fine, I get that. But whatever it is that YOU want, NOW, what are you willing to gut in the current contract, which is already heavily concessionary, to achieve that modest quicker raise for YOU?
05-25-2015, 09:16 AM
Straight QOL, homie
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With profit sharing as a backstop, there will never be a better time to dig in our heels and wait for the right deal. No "self-funded" raises, no concessions. I'll wait 2+ years for that deal. Will RA wait that long?
And why are the Dalpa operatives talking about the PILOTS being unreasonable? Seems to me the company's stance is pretty damn unreasonable. But you won't hear Dalpa saying that.
And why are the Dalpa operatives talking about the PILOTS being unreasonable? Seems to me the company's stance is pretty damn unreasonable. But you won't hear Dalpa saying that.
05-25-2015, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by seamonster
NO. Just wondering if our union in a roundabout way represents all nonunion employees.
All employees have successfully piggybacked on the DALPA contractual profit sharing. Most other employee groups, especially FA's, benefit mightily from DL pilot scope that they've never paid for and probably never will, and don't even know exists.
05-25-2015, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Purple Drank
With profit sharing as a backstop, there will never be a better time to dig in our heels and wait for the right deal. No "self-funded" raises, no concessions. I'll wait 2+ years for that deal. Will RA wait that long?
And why are the Dalpa operatives talking about the PILOTS being unreasonable? Seems to me the company's stance is pretty damn unreasonable. But you won't hear Dalpa saying that.
And why are the Dalpa operatives talking about the PILOTS being unreasonable? Seems to me the company's stance is pretty damn unreasonable. But you won't hear Dalpa saying that.
05-25-2015, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by forgot to bid
Or maybe we should threaten to unionize? 
Besides, we have to pass this TA to see what's in it.
05-25-2015, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by flyallnite
Vapor TA thoughts here: I was reading about how our contract was when I started. 7 weeks of vacation, trips touching, cap, authorized leave, 300 hours of annual sick leave, pension, the list goes on.
I've tried to make this point before. They are playing chess. The game is called "slow boil". As in, gently direct us into the pot and slowly increase the heat. Before you know it, it's too hot to do anything about your predicament, you're cooked.
I made the point in C2012 that the sick leave section gave the company too much leeway to abuse us for using sick leave. Way too many loopholes for the company. I was flatly dismissed by my reps, and a lot of folks on here. "no, the company would never do that!" ---now we have an entire department dedicated to doing just that, and it wasn't enough for them. Now they want more.
Our predicament will be this if we continue to sell our protections for pay: You will be beholden to fly a lot more, with less control of your schedule and your life in order to make a living. Verifying your sick leave may become such a hassle that you may just decide to fly sick (or not well) instead of dealing with the paper chase. But it's not just sick leave.
If we are not careful, they'll have us in the trick bag. The last thing they'll come for is the money. Once they get us strapped to the wheel, then they come for the compensation and we can do nothing to stop it because of: Sick leave, Joint Ventures, Scope, Recovery Compacts, Staffing Requirements and so on. In other words, when they come for the money and you decide you want a day off or want to start pursuing other avenues of work, forget it. We Own You.
Don't get Owned. That's the game we need to be playing.
One last thing: The concept that you have to give to get in negotiations is a farce. We aren't negotiating a peace treaty or a divorce. When a Goldman Sachs employee goes into his boss and asks for a raise following a record-breaking year, does his boss ask him what he's going to give up for that raise? We are making billions because of our efforts. Our execs haven't been asked to give up anything for their raises. Our contracts 'matured' because of incremental gains, not from selling contractual protections that are essential to our careers.
I've tried to make this point before. They are playing chess. The game is called "slow boil". As in, gently direct us into the pot and slowly increase the heat. Before you know it, it's too hot to do anything about your predicament, you're cooked.
I made the point in C2012 that the sick leave section gave the company too much leeway to abuse us for using sick leave. Way too many loopholes for the company. I was flatly dismissed by my reps, and a lot of folks on here. "no, the company would never do that!" ---now we have an entire department dedicated to doing just that, and it wasn't enough for them. Now they want more.
Our predicament will be this if we continue to sell our protections for pay: You will be beholden to fly a lot more, with less control of your schedule and your life in order to make a living. Verifying your sick leave may become such a hassle that you may just decide to fly sick (or not well) instead of dealing with the paper chase. But it's not just sick leave.
If we are not careful, they'll have us in the trick bag. The last thing they'll come for is the money. Once they get us strapped to the wheel, then they come for the compensation and we can do nothing to stop it because of: Sick leave, Joint Ventures, Scope, Recovery Compacts, Staffing Requirements and so on. In other words, when they come for the money and you decide you want a day off or want to start pursuing other avenues of work, forget it. We Own You.
Don't get Owned. That's the game we need to be playing.
One last thing: The concept that you have to give to get in negotiations is a farce. We aren't negotiating a peace treaty or a divorce. When a Goldman Sachs employee goes into his boss and asks for a raise following a record-breaking year, does his boss ask him what he's going to give up for that raise? We are making billions because of our efforts. Our execs haven't been asked to give up anything for their raises. Our contracts 'matured' because of incremental gains, not from selling contractual protections that are essential to our careers.
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