Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
05-25-2015 | 10:12 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 12,831
Likes: 172
From: window seat
I think you answered your own question. From their perspective, getting us to sign a rushed TA for some measure of an inevitable raise in exchange for potentially huge foundational concessions is the reason for a quick deal. They want their concessions now. When times are bad they get concessions across the board including pay. When times are good they restore only a portion of the pay and get more concessions to pay for the pay. Now that's a winning game plan (from their point of view).
05-25-2015 | 10:24 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,465
Likes: 0
From: A330 First Officer
I think you mean section 6. And I agree with the majority of this post. However if they come up with a TA that includes a reduction in PS and a pay increase, I'll look at it. It had better be pretty significant in terms of that pay increase, and I will deduct the percentage of pay increase from the loss of PS and make my decision based on that. I told my reps that I would be pretty unhappy if they did negotiate PS down in this, but never say never I guess.
05-25-2015 | 10:46 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,184
Likes: 0
I agree. For decades SWA has been publicly stating, to the investment community, that they put employees first, customers second and the shareholder third. While they may not have done it WRT profit sharing to the extent DL is right now, they sure did it to an even greater extent in regular pay for many years. Has their stock tanked?
I remember when they signed something like a 10 year deal (correct me if I am wrong on that) and everybody laughed at them. Now they are the gold standard. singles and doubles, and here are, leading the league.
05-25-2015 | 10:50 AM
FlySmarterNotHarder
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 596
Likes: 1
From: fifi flyer
I'm not saying hold out to "swing for the fences" or whatever. I'm talking about not falling for numerous, embedded and DEEP concessions all through the potential TA like the ones that are rumored. I would rather be parked instead of that ANY DAY.
If you're saying you're in range of retirement and will take anything as long as its a raise to you even if it guts scope and QOL for everyone else, have fun with that stratedgy. But unless we sign 10 year deals the demographics will never support that, even during the big retirement wave, which isn't until the next contract most likely.
This isn't a matter of hey we can get a 30% raise today but that's not a Cadillac per month or C2K+ full inflation (and retro!) so lets hold out until we get the motherload! I get the time value of money argument, and while I don't think that means we should roll over too easy, there is some level of value in TVM. I get it. But this is about us not falling for numerous, DEEP concessions in the most critical section of the contract (scope, at ALL levels) and inheriting a pathetic sick/harassment program that will harm far more pilots for far more years than those who will get a few bucks prior to punching out (not to mention, its that same demographic that uses the most sick time in the first place).
I want positive gains form everyone, including the "dead zoners" and every other group all the way down to new hires. And I understand time value of money to a certain extent. But we should not sell management deep and permanent concessions for slightly more money sooner. That's just dumb. More importantly, the demographics simply don't support it anyway, even if we embrace a stratedgy of selling the majority down the river to get a few extra pieces of silver today.
If you're saying you're in range of retirement and will take anything as long as its a raise to you even if it guts scope and QOL for everyone else, have fun with that stratedgy. But unless we sign 10 year deals the demographics will never support that, even during the big retirement wave, which isn't until the next contract most likely.
This isn't a matter of hey we can get a 30% raise today but that's not a Cadillac per month or C2K+ full inflation (and retro!) so lets hold out until we get the motherload! I get the time value of money argument, and while I don't think that means we should roll over too easy, there is some level of value in TVM. I get it. But this is about us not falling for numerous, DEEP concessions in the most critical section of the contract (scope, at ALL levels) and inheriting a pathetic sick/harassment program that will harm far more pilots for far more years than those who will get a few bucks prior to punching out (not to mention, its that same demographic that uses the most sick time in the first place).
I want positive gains form everyone, including the "dead zoners" and every other group all the way down to new hires. And I understand time value of money to a certain extent. But we should not sell management deep and permanent concessions for slightly more money sooner. That's just dumb. More importantly, the demographics simply don't support it anyway, even if we embrace a stratedgy of selling the majority down the river to get a few extra pieces of silver today.
I think it is reasonable to expect a good contract ahead, with plenty of gains all around. I don't see the rationale at all for going backwards on any part of our contract considering the current economic and pattern bargaining environment.
Im just saying I'd take double and triples rather than holding out for the dubious home run. That seems reasonable. RBIs score the same as homers.
05-25-2015 | 10:53 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,184
Likes: 0
No I mean section 3, payrates, in the contract. I want the union to negotiate section 3 then if the company wants to talk PS we can talk but I hate the way they did the payrates in C2012. 4/8.5/3/3 but they would have been less if we had not given up profit sharing? I do believe most Delta pilots would have voted no to say a 0(that was early anyway)/6.5/3/3 or even an 8.5/3/3. Funny how many Dalpa guys were in the lounge saying don't worry we won't ever see those 3/3 with a wink like we were going to get another bite at the apple before they took effect.
Again, I am not saying cave or rush or whatever, but are you guys seeing all the drama that i going on here lately? You'd think ISIS walked into the ATL pilot lounge and killed everybody's dog and wanted payment for doing so. In a sense it would be amusing, but it's really kind of scary knowing that we have guys that are so half cocked that they are willing to burn everything down over nothing more than rumors.
05-25-2015 | 10:59 AM
FlySmarterNotHarder
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 596
Likes: 1
From: fifi flyer
So what then are you willing to GIVE UP to get that?
If its from the minority its OK though, right? You paid your dues, so they can eat cake, right? Is that really what you're trying to say because that's exactly how its coming across.
Again, I'm not talking about time value of money and you thinking a nice raise sooner is better than a bigger raise later or maybe never. Fine, I get that. But whatever it is that YOU want, NOW, what are you willing to gut in the current contract, which is already heavily concessionary, to achieve that modest quicker raise for YOU?
If its from the minority its OK though, right? You paid your dues, so they can eat cake, right? Is that really what you're trying to say because that's exactly how its coming across.
Again, I'm not talking about time value of money and you thinking a nice raise sooner is better than a bigger raise later or maybe never. Fine, I get that. But whatever it is that YOU want, NOW, what are you willing to gut in the current contract, which is already heavily concessionary, to achieve that modest quicker raise for YOU?
I understand these are all senior "old guy" wishes. Young guys with 25 or 30 years to go just want more money, and they are willing to hold out for it.
Im not talking about gutting anything. I've never really seen a better negotiating environment than we have now. The stockholders, executives, and other employees have been well taken care of. It's our turn now and I think we will do well if we can avoid being too confrontational and greedy.
But some just want a fight. They want payback, vengeance, resentments to settle. They've never seen a better environment than this for that now too. I just think that is foolish.
05-25-2015 | 11:22 AM
FlySmarterNotHarder
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 596
Likes: 1
From: fifi flyer
Ah, there it is. The ubiquitous ALPA straw man argument. The "just say no crowd." Hint: that crowd is growing exponentially every day.
And it's stunning how fast ALPA went from promising an "historic" contract to dispatching messengers here to tell us that if we vote down a crappy TA, we have "unreasonable contract demands."
I'm happy to wind the clock and cash profit sharing checks until RA figures it out. I'd wager many of "those approaching retirement" will be just fine doing the same.
And it's stunning how fast ALPA went from promising an "historic" contract to dispatching messengers here to tell us that if we vote down a crappy TA, we have "unreasonable contract demands."
I'm happy to wind the clock and cash profit sharing checks until RA figures it out. I'd wager many of "those approaching retirement" will be just fine doing the same.
All the forums, the original compuserve boards (hey Mickley), the old DALPA forum, this APC, and chit-chat, all have the same group of the "Just say NO crowd", "DPA (or PPA) wannabes", "whiners", and "ALPA crusaders".
That never changes.
Im telling you I think we will get a good contract not a crappy one, and Im not willing to wind the watch just to settle old resentments. The "just say NO crowd" just want to vote NO. They don't care if you pay them a million dollars a week and work only on Tuesday. They are looking for a fight. I guarantee you any contract they see will be "crappy" for some obscure, and probably personal, reason or another. I hope that crowd is not growing exponentially as you say. Although I don't know how you would know that.
05-25-2015 | 11:26 AM
Line Holder
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,257
Likes: 5
As far as I can tell the shareholders are getting back more than any profits we've taken in. How much have they spent in buying back stock and the dividend vs how much we've actually posted as profit since exiting bankruptcy?
Sent from my crib.
Sent from my crib.
05-25-2015 | 11:40 AM
Bye Bye Maddog!
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 560
Likes: 0
From: Movin' On UP........
05-25-2015 | 11:42 AM
FlySmarterNotHarder
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 596
Likes: 1
From: fifi flyer
Fair. Just entertain the fact that the first rejection may improve the lot in weeks....not years. Don't let FUD cloud your judgement. That is the hope of the MEC and mgt. Understand the unused leverage we keep leaving on the table. As the DOD guys say.....never take a bad deal now.
I expect our MEC to do the best they can and to stand behind a TA. Rejecting it is not likely not going to add gains, just shuffle around what we have attained.
Its like negotiating a 25% raise, represented by 25 cents, or a quarter. How do you want that? Two dimes and a nickel? Five nickels? A dime, two nickels, and five pennies?
I appreciate the caution to not let FUD cloud my judgement, but at some point I have to trust someone. I am not a lawyer, negotiator, airline or industry expert, finance and retirement specialist, etc. We have experts for all that. I know pilots think they know it all, but truly they do not.
So... I will vote NO only if there is some reasonable proof of fraud, deception, or major screw up. Not just because Im not happy with every single letter of it. We don't get a line item veto, that is not what your vote is for.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
