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Originally Posted by poopplop
(Post 2557501)
Excellent first post. I understand the complexity of contract negotiations and bankruptcy. However, I am speaking from simple and understandable logic. Yes, the company can propose adding regional subcontractors to cut costs and save the airline. That means that other pilots, schedulers, management etc would have to do the same jobs for less money. The simple alternative to that is providing cheaper labor to save your own company and jobs, instead of pushing the lower wages onto others. At some point the choice was made to push those hardships onto someone else, instead of taking the hit and waiting until they had leverage again. They sold their job market share to prop up their own wages and ensure company profits. That's called "selling out" the industry.
So by simple logic did they “sell out?” Maybe. But I wonder if we would have felt like we were selling the future in their shoes at the time. I know as an industry, and lots have now brought their experience to Delta, we won’t be so easily sold on such things anymore. Or at least that’s my hope. |
Originally Posted by poopplop
(Post 2557501)
Excellent first post. I understand the complexity of contract negotiations and bankruptcy. However, I am speaking from simple and understandable logic. Yes, the company can propose adding regional subcontractors to cut costs and save the airline. That means that other pilots, schedulers, management etc would have to do the same jobs for less money. The simple alternative to that is providing cheaper labor to save your own company and jobs, instead of pushing the lower wages onto others. At some point the choice was made to push those hardships onto someone else, instead of taking the hit and waiting until they had leverage again. They sold their job market share to prop up their own wages and ensure company profits. That's called "selling out" the industry.
Denny |
Originally Posted by Gooner
(Post 2557537)
Simple logic it may be, it feels a bit over simplified for such a complex action. Having voted for a bankruptcy contract I can tell you I didn’t feel like I sold out the industry even though I, temporarily, set a floor for some aspects of contracts. The pilots that “sold out” to bring about the regionals of 98-2015 probably were sold and maybe even partially believed they were opening an opportunity for industry new comers, while also saving themselves some short term pain. Till that point regionals posed little danger, management saw an opportunity.
So by simple logic did they “sell out?” Maybe. But I wonder if we would have felt like we were selling the future in their shoes at the time. I know as an industry, and lots have now brought their experience to Delta, we won’t be so easily sold on such things anymore. Or at least that’s my hope. |
Originally Posted by Denny Crane
(Post 2556308)
Have you ever been thru a major airline bankruptcy? Many, many items were lost including scope, QOL issues and a pretty severe pay cut. Ever since then, in pretty much every subsequent contract, we have made strides to reduce the outsourced (RJ) flying. You don’t mention anything about that. It’s easy to criticize when you don’t have to live through it.
Denny
Originally Posted by Denny Crane
(Post 2557544)
You never answered my question. Have you been thru a bankruptcy and subsequent "negotiation?" I think not. You say you understand the complexity but, your past posting history (including this one) indicates you have no clue about the complexities.
Denny |
Still won’t answer the question. I’ve made my point. You are not worth the effort any more.
Denny |
Originally Posted by Denny Crane
(Post 2557572)
Still won’t answer the question. I’ve made my point. You are not worth the effort any more.
Denny I posted some links below just in case you don't know what a fallacious argument is. And be sure to watch the whole youtube video I posted describing ad hominem attacks, so you can fully understand why you haven't produced a sound argument for me to respond to yet. If you think you have superior experience and knowledge on the subject, use it to beat me in an argument. Don't try and use it to beat ME. After all, you will probably have a hard time insulting an anonymous internet profile with a username like "poopplop". https://www.thefreedictionary.com/Fallacious+argument https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies I am happy to discuss the topic with you and will try to be as civil as possible, with perhaps a few interjections of sarcasm. Have a nice day. poop |
Originally Posted by poopplop
(Post 2557545)
So they either sold the scope on purpose, or sold it by accident because they were fooled by management. Either way is bad, and the history is set in stone. I don't see why grown men can't acknowledge the mistakes they made in the past, which are the same mistakes they outwardly claim they won't make again in the future.
That’s why I find it hard to fully blame and call that generation sell outs, compromise was required. Bankruptcy is too powerful a tool against workers who can’t strike to lay all responsibility at their feet. As I have said repeatedly, it was a long, painful (for everyone, even said “sell outs”) result, that hopefully we as a profession learned from. But I hope you maintain your strong fight against giving up scope, we will need it. The new threats are unforeseen though, so it’s not always easy to avoid accidentally selling out as you say. |
As things improve “non rev”
Wise at least our biggest opponent are mainline pilots who allowed these sub standard jobs to exist and now are arguing to stop their improvement. |
Originally Posted by msprj2
(Post 2557813)
As things improve “non rev”
Wise at least our biggest opponent are mainline pilots who allowed these sub standard jobs to exist and now are arguing to stop their improvement. |
Originally Posted by Gooner
(Post 2557756)
The problem with this black/white logic, current in all spheres of interest, is that it leads to no compromise and thus no contract would ever be signed.
That’s why I find it hard to fully blame and call that generation sell outs, compromise was required. Bankruptcy is too powerful a tool against workers who can’t strike to lay all responsibility at their feet. As I have said repeatedly, it was a long, painful (for everyone, even said “sell outs”) result, that hopefully we as a profession learned from. But I hope you maintain your strong fight against giving up scope, we will need it. The new threats are unforeseen though, so it’s not always easy to avoid accidentally selling out as you say. Something was gained or retained by selling scope. Just because the people that sold it didn't know what it was worth, doesn't absolve them of the mistake. Now that we can all see the consequences of the mistake clearly, hopefully it won't be made again. |
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